Engraving

[frogwalking]

Hi all,

As noted in the previous post about emphasizing stock moldings, this rifle is approaching completion.   I have made a patchbox that is based on the one by Jacob Sees in the ALR library.  The engraving on it will be rather simple.  I am trying to polish my very rudimentary engraving skills, but would consider having someone else engrave the patchbox, as well as a few lines on the lock and sideplate if I can afford it.  My on abilities resemble folk art rather than actual skill of any kind.  Do you have any suggestions of someone who could help with this at a bargain price? 

Thanks again,

Frog

[ddoyle]

Maybe looking for a bargain is not the right approach. Cash tight? Offer to mow lawns and paint fences hour for hour instead.

[Shreckmeister]

Any price is a bargain when your options are ruining a patchbox or having it done right.  I use Dave Seedenburg.
He does a nice job.  You can email me for an example if you wish.  Located near Altoona PA

[L. Akers]

I will suggest Beverly Decman of Joliet, Illinois.  She is an artist by vocation and among other talents does some engraving.  She studied under Lynton McKensie for a number of years before his death.  She has attended the gunmaking seminars at WKU for years and builds (and shoots) beautiful guns.

[Mike Brooks]

Maybe looking for a bargain is not the right approach. Cash tight? Offer to mow lawns and paint fences hour for hour instead.

Unfortunately it's too cold for mowing or painting in Iowa....

Depending on what it is you're building, your skills may be on par with American work in that period. Many skilled engravers do too fine a job for American work....In my opinion of course.

[jerrywh]

 Almost all the engraving on American longrifles looked like folk art. You have t ostart somewhere. Practice on scrap brass. Don't do it until you are confident. Whats the hurry.

[JTR]

Frog, That chicken track or wriggle engraving is really simple to do. Why not print out a copy of that Jacob Sees patchbox and copy it onto a price of brass and give it a try. Use a flat or square graver and trim the width of the flat to the width of the tracks you want to do, and wriggle away! I'll bet after about an hour of practice, you'll be engraving as well as ol' Mr. Sees did!

What you don't want is some modern engraver doing the work, and adding his modern 'improved' look to the style that Sees used.

John 

[hanshi]

Almost all the engraving on American longrifles looked like folk art. You have t ostart somewhere. Practice on scrap brass. Don't do it until you are confident. Whats the hurry.

Now THAT is a surprise to me!  I would have thought "artistic"; but more "folksy" engraving skills do make sense.  I like the idea of being historically correct with less than excellent engraving.  It means we duffers might not be so bad with our engraving.

[JTR]

Some were good engravers, some were sort of great, but none really come up to the level of modern engraving today. However, engraving at that time was made to be enjoyed at arms length or while holding the gun. And it's not just Kentucky's, look at any 1800's engraved gun, Colts, Winchesters, etc, and the well done ones look good at arms length. Enlarge it 10 or a 100 times and it looks like pretty shabby.

Today, modern engravers have excellent tools available for a few bucks (relatively), super efficient lightening and visual aids that are unbelievable. The old boys had none of this, not even a light bulb! An easy way to learn how to engrave like the old guys did is to turn off the shop lights and open the window, toss your glasses in the corners, sharpen up that piece of sort of steel, and go at it.  

John

[oldtravler61]

 Don't know about frogwalking. But you defianatly convinced me. So I'll give it a go. Thanks guys!! 

[Mark Elliott]

Almost all the engraving on American longrifles looked like folk art. You have t ostart somewhere. Practice on scrap brass. Don't do it until you are confident. Whats the hurry.

My practice pieces often look better than my production pieces.   I have that problem with a lot of things.   

[Mike Brooks]

Almost all the engraving on American longrifles looked like folk art. You have t ostart somewhere. Practice on scrap brass. Don't do it until you are confident. Whats the hurry.

My practice pieces often look better than my production pieces.   I have that problem with a lot of things.   

That's why I never practice!

[thimble rig]

You will do ok.Just take youre time and practice and get youre confidence up and keep it simple .Just like you did with youre moldings they turned out great

[frogwalking]

I resharpened my main graver with a much smaller angle at the bottom, and now can sort of hold to a single width and depth line.  I can sort of keep the line on my mark.  How do you put a seeable, thin line on the brass?  Will a very thin sharpie do it?  Engraving white, in my hands, makes a mess.

JTR, I had a modern engraver work on the patchbox of a rifle I made several years ago; since given to my son.  Just to demonstrate his skill, he engraved a modern eagle on the toeplate.  I probably did not show proper appreciation. He simply had no idea how out of place it was.  Luckily, it was a plain toeplate, so I replaced it.

[M. E. Pering]

Hi Frog et al,

About two years ago I became determined that I would learn engraving.  I went to the local Hobby Lobby and picked up a sheet of .030" brass, and proceeded to cut it into practice plates.  I went to the local Harbor Freight and bought a cheap round rasp.  I cut it in half, and on my grinder, made a rough graver, and then polished it.  I epoxied a practice plate to a chunk of plywood, and drew a design on it.  I mounted it in a cheap drill press vise, and started cutting.

Probably needless to say, when it was done, and I removed the layout white from the piece, I thought I had seen more eloquence delivered by my chickens, scratching in the dirt in their run.  Straight lines weren't straight and curved lines were full of jerks.  So I continued... Trying to copy that same original design over and over.  By the time I had done this about 10 times, it was looking much better. 

Then it was time to try it on the real thing... A rifle that I built almost 20 years ago.  It was a totally different design though.  But I laid it out in the same manner, and engraved it in the same manner I had on those practice plates.  It turned out just fine.  It turned out that I was learning more of a technique, not a pattern.  It didn't come out perfect, but if I had tried to engrave the rifle without the practice, I would have been much more disappointed.

But when I consider the old makers, who were neither perfect engravers nor did they have the lighting we have today, I have to admire the beautiful things they did turn out.  I am engraving a third rifle now, and am not looking for perfection.  Perfect engraving on a longrifle that is supposed to be from the 18th century is totally out of place, IMO.  It should look like folkart, because that is indeed what it was... A rifle with some decoration.  But of course, as competition between makers became more fierce, the engraving got better, and there was more of it.

The way I learned was to just dive in.  I started with little practice plates of brass.  Steel would work too, and as a matter of fact, I find steel to be a bit easier to engrave... Less grabby than brass.  And as a beginner, just do it, learn your technique, and don't worry about perfection, since you will never arrive there.  Aim to just improve, and you will do great.  Good luck. 

Matt

P. S. ~ If I ever figure out how to post a picture here, I will show you my latest sideplate for a rifle I have in the beginning phases.

[jerrywh]

JTR.
   There were some engravers in the 1700's just about as good as some of the best today. They also had magnifying glasses that were very strong. There were 12 years old kids that were very good even by today’s standards. Books were illustrated with engravings. The American banknote co. started before the American Revolution and their engravers were unbelievably good. One of them engraved a gun for Simon North. The gun was made for a presentation to an American naval officer and had a banknote engraving of a sea battle on the side plate.  There are only a handful that can equal that today. Look up Francois Boucher of France.   Paul Revere was pretty good.

[JTR]

Jerry,
  Yes, I forgot the caveat of never saying never say never, or ever, around here.  But I was speaking more to Kentucky rifles and their makers, and the engravers of Colts, Winchesters, etc as done by Nimschke and his contemporaries, say in comparison to what Phil Cogan posted here a couple months ago.
  Personally, I enjoy studying Kentucky rifle engraving and the way it was done, and I also like the work done on vintage Colts and Winchesters so I'm not criticizing.
 And if you look at the work done by 1900 century engravers working on Holland & Holland guns or other high end stuff, todays engravers outshine them too (For the most part).

And hey, is the Engravers Guild meeting going to be in Las Vegas this weekend, and will you be there? If so, I'll look for you there.

John    

[Sawatis]

Hey Frog
I put off trying to engrave for about 12 years thinking I couldn't do it.  I did a week with Wallace at WCU a while back...didn't learn anything "new"...what I did learn was that I COULD do it.  Sharp tools...a light hand...practice on everything you get your hands on.
John

[jerrywh]

I won't be in Vegas. I don't have anything to show. I'm working on a couple of  jobs now.
 I'm doing a joint project with Jim Schulze fron California. I am making the lock butt plate and trigger guard and engrving the gun. I am also doing some profile on the Damascus barrel. It is a 18 th Century Russian Jaeger.
   I am also making a double flint French 18 th century pistol.  Both guns are something nobody has done since the 18th Century mostly because you can't bay the parts.
  I might just skip the Vegas show and bring all the stuff to the CLA show in Lexington if they will let me  in.
 

[M. E. Pering]

Let's see if this works:


Sorry for the crappy photo, but this is the third sideplate I have engraved, and is still in progress. 

Matt

[jerrywh]

 That's better than most originals.

[M. E. Pering]

Thank you, Jerrywh.  That means a lot coming from someone of your talent.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Hi all,

As noted in the previous post about emphasizing stock moldings, this rifle is approaching completion.   I have made a patchbox that is based on the one by Jacob Sees in the ALR library.  The engraving on it will be rather simple.  I am trying to polish my very rudimentary engraving skills, but would consider having someone else engrave the patchbox, as well as a few lines on the lock and sideplate if I can afford it.  My on abilities resemble folk art rather than actual skill of any kind.  Do you have any suggestions of someone who could help with this at a bargain price?  

Thanks again,

Frog

Try Smitty's Engraving --good work at a right price -- and in a resonable time frame. I'd show you some pictures that he did for me in Sept. but I'm not at my home computer at the moment. His turn-around time was two weeks for some basic engraving on a side plate & patchbox -- I'd use him again.