Author Topic: Engraving patchbox  (Read 5006 times)

Offline frogwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1044
Engraving patchbox
« on: January 24, 2016, 11:01:39 PM »
Ok.  As instructed, I have been practicing with my graver and hammer.  I have improved from unspeakable to merely bad.  I plan to continue practicing for at least another week.  I know.  It takes years to get good.  I will be happy if I can do a not too terrible job.  From the patchbox I am copying, brother Sees did not excel on this one either.
I do have two more questions.  I have read that I can stick my patchbox to a plywood board with a blob of Bondo.  It can subsequently be released via a propane torch.  Are there any details other than this that would benefit me in this endeavor? 

The other is that I have two magnifying devices that pivot down over my glasses.  The one I use most is plastic and has a 5  printed on it.  The other is much better, but I have to be so close to see that I can barely get my graver between my eye and the work.  It has a 10 on it.  I want to buy a new glass one that is slightly stronger than the one with the 5 but with a longer focal length than the other.  What do these numbers mean, so I know what power to buy?

Thank you all for the information patience and entertainment.

Frog
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

CoSnipe

  • Guest
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2016, 11:26:27 PM »
My guess without seeing the magnifier that it's 5x and 10x,or 5 times magnification and 10 times magnification like a pair of binoculars only at a different focal point.

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2016, 12:00:07 AM »
Lens        Focal Distance           Power

LP-2         20                           1 1/2X   
 
LP-3        14                            1 3/4X   

LP-4        10                            2X
 
LP-5         8                             2 1/2X
   
LP-7         6                             2 3/4X
   
LP-10       4                             3 1/2X


Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2016, 12:42:34 AM »
As David so professionally has indicated, you cannot increase power without diminishing focal length.

Don't use plywood for the base- use pine or spruce.  Make the base just a bit bigger than the periphery of the patchbox or other inlay.  Add a smaller block to the bottom with wood screws to clamp in your vise.  The best vise is a graver's ball, but I got by for nearly half a century with a swivel base machinist's vise.  Carve the soft wood base to approximate the curve of the patchbox, complete with a cut-out for the hinge.  Then you require less Bondo.  Works super good!
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2016, 12:46:31 AM »
Frog, You don't want to do those chicken tracks with hammer and graver. You want to do them by hand, holding the graver, and rocking your hand back and forth while pushing forward a bit. How hard you push dictates the 'distance' between tracks. The width of the graver tip dictates the width of the track.

John
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 12:49:26 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline M. E. Pering

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2016, 05:34:54 AM »
Glad you decided to try it, Frogwalking.  Like you, my engraving was unspeakable when I first tried it, and I just kept trying.  After about 10  1"x2.5" practice plates, it was barely acceptable.  Just keep practicing.  You will get the feel for it if you do.  I am still not a good engraver, but I am good enough to emulate some of the more mediocre makers of the period.

I must confess though, I do use 3/4" plywood for engraving flat pieces.  On a curved piece, I usually use 2x4 spruce or pine.  On the flat pieces, I usually stick them to the plywood with 5-minute epoxy.  And like the Bondo, the epoxy releases easily once heated with a propane torch.  The epoxy sets quicker than Bondo does.

On the other hand, epoxy is pricey compared to Bondo, and I do use Bondo for larger pieces like domed patchbox lids, where more fill is needed.  The main thing you want is support behind your work, so as not to dent the piece, thus the fill on the domed lids.

As far as holding my work, I prefer to be seated when I engrave, and I am currently using an inexpensive machinist's vise to hold the wood, and just set it on my bench.  This is by no means optimal, and I don't really recommend it.  On really tight scrolls, I spend more time turning the work than I do engraving.  But it works for me for now, until I get around to cutting a slice off one of my long-neglected bowling-balls and making my own ball vise.

And if you are doing wriggle engraving, as JTR said, it is much more efficient to use a push tool, as was traditionally done.  A push graver, used in this manner, doesn't really engrave so much as swage the lines into the metal.

Hope we can see a picture of your work soon... That can really help identify things that you might be struggling with.  I wish I had known about this forum when I started learning to engrave.  Keep practicing, and good luck.

Matt

Offline L. Akers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2016, 10:28:21 PM »
You can also engrave your patchbox "in situ".  That means in place on the stock.  The finale and side plates are  perfectly supported, but because it's not supported I still do the lid with bondo on a board.  I hold the forend (with barrel) in my bench vice and support the butt on a roller stand--that way I can walk around the butt end.  I release bondo'd parts by putting them in the freezer for an hour or so.  The part just pops off when tapped.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 11:11:00 PM »
I have improved from unspeakable to merely bad.


A friend of mine is a mutual friend of a talented gunmaker in Marysville BC., Gary Mummery.  When he is shown the latest piece off the bench, (we call him Willie Two Willies) says, "that's beyond shabby!"  A great compliment.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 11:25:17 PM »
Sometimes bondo is real hard to get off. Just spray the part with WD40 before you put in on the bondo board. That is what a lot of professional engravers do.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2016, 12:08:41 AM »
Sometimes bondo is real hard to get off. Just spray the part with WD40 before you put in on the bondo board. That is what a lot of professional engravers do.
Never had trouble getting bondo off.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2016, 05:02:34 PM »
I wouldn't advise sitting unless you have an engravers ball (I don't). You need to be able to move to follow curves smoothly. If you are going to engrave pieces that are already mounted on the rifle be prepared to  do a whole lot of repositioning in order to follow your pattern, otherwise you will end up with a lot of little "humps and bumps".

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2016, 01:06:37 AM »
Mike Brooks.
  You don't count. Your lucky
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2016, 01:13:03 AM »
Sometimes bondo is real hard to get off. Just spray the part with WD40 before you put in on the bondo board. That is what a lot of professional engravers do.
Never had trouble getting bondo off.
Me either.
David

Offline davec2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2958
    • The Lucky Bag
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2016, 02:01:18 AM »
For things that are flat (side plates, toe plates, lock plates, flint cock, top jaw, etc), I super glue them to hardwood pieces and release with heat after engraving.  Fast to do.  For things with screw holes (patch box parts, butt plate, etc), I shape a piece of wood to fit and use screws to hold the part and then clamp the wood in the vise.  For things I can clamp directly in the graver's block jaws (barrel breech plug, muzzle cap, front and rear extensions on a trigger guard), I just clamp but I do use lead shoes on the vise jaws for a better, more conformal grip.  For things like the rear ram rod pipe, frizzens, etc., (i.e. things that are hard to clamp) I use something like the Bondo trick (I use dental acrylic "cold cure".......works like Bondo but Bondo is easier for most people to get.  Releases cleanly with heat).
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline frogwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Engraving patchbox
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 02:25:38 AM »
Super glue releases with heat?  I have a model steam engine I superglued together per instructions 30 years ago.  It has not come apart yet.  I guess you get it hotter than about 250 f.  I thought the Bondo released due to the brass shrinking (cold) or swelling (heat) as in freezing the (iron) balls off a brass monkey.
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.