Engraving 101....help

[Boompa]

   Instruction needed. I found some old,(antique), gravers, bought a couple more square gravers new along with a chasing hammer. I've played around on some scrap brass and mild steel but so far it looks like the work of an inebriated orangutan. I don't know if my technique is all wrong, if the gravers are incorrectly sharpened or?  The most common problem is the tip of the graver digging too far into the metal, causing the graver to catch. Any recommendations on a video?   I have no problems carving wood nicely but this metal engraving is a new game.

[T*O*F]

I don't know if my technique is all wrong,

It is!!

if the gravers are incorrectly sharpened or?

They are!!

The wrong technique follows the incorrect sharpening.  Your generic description of your gravers tells us nothing.  You only need a properly shaped and sharpened square graver to accomplish beginner's success.

[smylee grouch]

Along with a sharp graver you might need a slight heel ground under the tip of the graver so it won't keep trying to go deeper.

[jerrywh]

 It could be that you bought hand push gravers made for jewelry engraving. Most of them do not have a heel. Engraving 101 should be entitled Sharpening 101. Don't even try to engrave until you learn to sharpen a square graver. I recomend you buy Sam Alfano's video on sharening.
 Google the engravers Cafe.

[smart dog]

Hi Boompa,
There is so much to cover and it can't really be done here very well.  Buy John Schipper's book "Engraving Historical Firearms"  published by the NMLRA (go to their website).  Once you have studied the book for a while you should understand how to proceed much better and members of this forum can help you much better.  Here is a link to a short essay I wrote that may help you get started but Schippers book is the best first step:

 http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14623.msg137314#msg137314

dave

[sqrldog]

American Pioneer Video has a DVD with Wallace Gusler demonstrating engraving and graver sharpening. R E Davis also has a DVD with Jack Brooks demonstrating his sharpening and engraving methods. You might find one or both worthwhile to purchase as they are both about longrifle engraving.  Tim

[delivered]

Take a NMLRA class B G Ky this summer!
I have taken Guslers and Kibbler's classes!
Then Practice, Practice and more practice.
John Shippers once said if you practice an hour a day for a year you would be one of the best engravers in the land!
Amazing how I can't seam to fine that 1 hr a week!!!

[Mike Brooks]

Lynton Mac Kenzie's video should have you engraving in no time.

[Boompa]

It could be that you bought hand push gravers made for jewelry engraving. Most of them do not have a heel.

       Okay there's part of the problem, that's how little I know about this. I didn't realize there was a difference. I'm certain that none of these have a heel and they are short with a palm type handle.  All of the old ones belonged to a jeweler that passed away.

         

[dogcatcher]

I would start with James Meek's book, The Art of Engraving for $35 at Brownell's.  He covers the sharpening from the beginning.  If you can master his simple stuff, then spend the $130.00 on the Schippers. 

I have both, needed both, and still could use some more guidance.  My advantage, I have no intention of ever using a graver on a weapon.  I just want to know how engraving is done. 

[Chowmi]

Boompa,
I feel your pain.  I have watched videos on it, and have both books mentioned in this thread, and have just started practicing.  My efforts look much like my 3 year old daughter's attempts at writing..  Or worse. 

I had major improvement when I switched to using the Lindsay graver sharpening system.  At this point, I am still just trying to cut consistent straight lines.  I got a few the other day that didn't look like a failed sobriety test.

For anyone here who uses the Lindsay graver sharpening system, which template do you recommend for a square graver?  I bought the set with all the different colored templates, and it seemed to me that the black 105 degree was the right one, but I was guessing.  Guys talk about using a 15 degree graver, and as such, I figured the 105 template must be 15 degrees somehow...  90+15= 105...

Cheers,
Chowmi

[Boompa]

  I'm not into overly gussied up guns, it is well beyond my ability anyway. Many of the elaborately engraved guns belong in an art museum, not in the game fields.  Nice lettering with the caliber designation along with tasteful scroll work here and there is all I'd care to do. 
      Looking at you-tube videos it would seem that most gun engraving is done with pneumatic engravers, set ups that run $2-$3K.
  By the way, filing a heel and re-sharpening the old gravers that I have has helped immensely.

[Rich]

I would listen to Jerry.

[T*O*F]

Guys talk about using a 15 degree graver, and as such, I figured the 105 template must be 15 degrees somehow...  90+15= 105..

Graver geometry is one of the most misunderstood aspects of sharpening.  This is probably the best video on how to sharpen a graver and you can actually see the angles because he has used a large model.

http://www.engraversstudio.com/apps/videos/videos/show/12204393-sharpening-overview

Once you have watched the video, go to this link and download the first two PDF's, Graver Geometry and Determining Graver Geometry, and save them for future reference.

http://www.engraversstudio.com/apps/documents/

Upon completion, you will know almost everything you need to know about graver sharpening.  Lindsay's templates merely remove the need to know the math, but allow you to only sharpen ONE profile per template.  The universal sharpening fixture sold by GRS allows you to sharpen ANY profile you desire, however you must know the math to do so.

[hudson]

Another vote Lynton Mac Kenzie's videos. They were available from Brownells. There are three, the first covers sharpening in detail and some basics. Good luck.

[Chris Treichel]

You need a good teacher.  Engraving is not intuitive, a good teacher can show you how to do it right. Lots of things beginners (like me) do wrong... bad sharpening, wrong angles (compound angles), too heavy hammers, bad technique etc all can be fixed quite easily by someone who knows what they are doing. Check out your local art places, there is probably someone who teaches engraving. I have books and while they give good ideas are not a replacement for someone who can show you how to do it right...

[JTR]

Lot's of good advice here. From my experience by far the easiest way to discover whether you'll enjoy engraving or not, is to buy a Lindsay Universal sharpening set. To start with, you don't need a variety of point options, nor do you need to understand the geometry of various points. All you really need is a properly sharpened square graver, a handle to hold it and a hammer to hit it with. I'd bet that within an hour, you'll be cutting lines much better than you ever have before! The number one thing in learning to engrave is proper and repeatable sharpening. Also, better to practice on mild steel, as it cuts better than brass.

Click this link;
http://www.airgraver.com/Hand_Engraving_Tools_Overview.htm

and scroll down to graver Sharpening and choose what you need as some come with sharpening stones and some not. Note also that these sharpening tools require 3/32 gravers, so you might need to buy a few of those as well.

If it turns out you enjoy engraving with a proper tool, buy some books and work on improving. If you find it's not for you, put the sharpening tools up for sale here and you'll get most of your money back.

John

[Rolf]

You need a good teacher.  Engraving is not intuitive, a good teacher can show you how to do it right. Lots of things beginners (like me) do wrong... bad sharpening, wrong angles (compound angles), too heavy hammers, bad technique etc all can be fixed quite easily by someone who knows what they are doing. Check out your local art places, there is probably someone who teaches engraving. I have books and while they give good ideas are not a replacement for someone who can show you how to do it right...

Amen to that. I have books galore, couple of dvd's and  have just about given up trying to learn engraving without a tutor. I have the Lindsay sharpening templates. Sharpening is no problem. But I still can't do a straigth line with consistent depth.

Best regards
Rolf

[Chris Treichel]

If your having a hard time keeping consistent debth... try a lighter hammer. While some books suggest a "perfect set of angles" for your graver you may have to adjust your technique or the angles on your tools.

The first lesson I learned in my engraving class was how to make the dozen or so gravers and chisels I would need. I had to make them all from tool stock.

[JTR]

Rolf, There's lot's of way to skin the cat, and I'm not a great engraver, but for me to keep a consistent depth I adjust the tool length so I can keep the heel of the graver pretty much parallel with the work surface, and at the same time keep the knuckles of my 3rd and 4th fingers lightly in contact with the work surface. I find it easy to use the touch, or pressure of my skin on the work surface to use as a height adjuster as the tool cuts.
John 

[Boompa]

  I found the engravers café forum. Lots of information there on sharpening, equipment, tutorials, etc.  Does anyone still use hand gravers with a chasing hammer?  It looks to me like the mechanically assisted gravers are the norm.   

[jerrywh]

Nearly all the professional engravers in this country use power assist gravers all or part of the time.  I use all three types. Hand push, hammer driven and graver Mach. The last two top engravers in this country I know of who used hammer and chisel exclusily were Frank Hendrix and Lynton McKenzie. Keith Casteel uses hammer and chisel and is very good.
   I think most of the Italian Engravers use hammer and chisel and hand push.  I know the engravers for tiffany only use hand push.
 

[Gaeckle]

  I found the engravers café forum. Lots of information there on sharpening, equipment, tutorials, etc.  Does anyone still use hand gravers with a chasing hammer?  It looks to me like the mechanically assisted gravers are the norm.   

John Shippers does......fun to watch and he'll answer any question that you ask.

[Mike Brooks]

Another vote Lynton Mac Kenzie's videos. They were available from Brownells. There are three, the first covers sharpening in detail and some basics. Good luck.

His sharpening methods are simple and fool proof. You need a stone and a 5/8" piece of hardened steel for a jig. Then you're off to the races. If this was difficult I couldn't do it.....

[Boompa]

  I've found the MacKenzie videos, a little pricey,($84), but these are likely worth it I've ordered the beginner video.  I took 3-4 of the gravers and filed a small heel on them at it has made a world of difference.  At least now I can follow a drawn line well enough to write my initials.  I'm a relative newcomer to building LRs but one thing I really enjoy is that there is always something to learn, always areas to make progress in.