Safety question

[frogwalking]

I have a friend, who at 70 and in poor health, is attempting to build his first longrifle.  He sold an assault rifle and has bought a kit for a "Tennessee rifle" in 45 caliber, I think.  While I was living and working out of state, he installed the breechplug, the underlugs and pined the barrel to the stock.  I do not know why, but he did not turn the breechplug in tight, neither to the tang/barrel, nor to the front of the plug /barrel.  He has more than half an inch screwed into the barrel, however, and plans to either locktight the plug in, or to use JB weld.  It is not a sure thing that he will ever finish or attempt to shoot this gun, so I have not told him that this is just not right.  If it does ever get completed, I will insist the thing be test fired with a looong string.  since the barrel is already pinned to the stock, simply turning the plug in the rest of the way (a flat or two) is out of the question.  He has been my friend for 50 years, and he has fought cancer for 12 of that.  I do not know how much longer he has to work on this thing, but thinking about it keeps his mind occupied.

Is this thing going to blow up?  Please do not slam him for his effort.

[bob in the woods]

I doubt that t will "blow up" , but I'm pretty certain that the breach will "leak" ,  The threads alone on the plugs I've seen won't seal .  I know you are thinking about your friend, but what are the chances of someone else firing this someday. If it looks like a gun, ......     Re-pinning the barrel is not a big deal in my opinion. I've plugged scads of pin holes over the years, and most once finished, aren't that obvious. Maybe you could give your buddy a hand and it could be done right in short order.

[Mark Elliott]

 I agree with Bob. You can't let this go. I think you should fix it for him.

[M. E. Pering]

If the breech plug isn't tight, then it isn't tight.  Period.  This is a safety issue.  This is an opportunity for you to show him how it should be, and how this is important.  There are certain areas of rifle building that cannot be fudged on, and this is one of them.  If there is a gap between the threads of the breech plug and where the rifling starts, it will be impossible to keep clean.  That fouling will lead to corrosion, and that is a safety issue as well.  Though I do use anti-seize compound on my breech plugs, I know they are fitted correctly.  It is possible to do a full turn usually, to get the lugs to line up opposite the top flat of the barrel, even if you have to file down both the plug and barrel.  Lots of old guns only had 3/8ths inch plugs.  With today's superior metals, this gives us a lot of room to play.

Matt

[Hungry Horse]

 The man that taught me the most about shooting black powder went through a similar phase. Although he wasn't a gun builder, he knew how they should be built. He was the driving force in our gun club when it came to gun safety, and the promoted a gun safety program in the local schools. At one of these gun safety seminars in the local middle school I was demonstrating how to tell if a muzzleloader was loaded. I picked up his canoe gun and dropped the ramrod down the barrel, and was shocked when it showed that the gun had a charge in it. This was the first warning sign.
 He and I had built a Longrifle together, and he wanted to build a fowler on his own. By now it had become obvious that he was suffering from major memory loss, and the gun he was building was not safe. I told his wife to keep an eye on his progress, and if it looked like he was going to finish the fowler to let me know. I told her if it looked like the fowler was functional there would be a break in, and the gun would disappear. I didn't have to rob my old friend, his disability ended his life before he got close to finishing the fowler.
 You may be seeing the beginnings of a health problem, so watch carefully, and check his guns regularly.

 Hungry Horse

[Joe S.]

You should make an effort to persuade him to correct the problem.While I am sorry for his heath you never know where the gun might end up,then it could be somebody else's heath.If he's not familiar with black powder guns and how they function perhaps explain it in black guns terms,head spacing,out of battery fire ect.You need to take this on,like it or not

[rich pierce]

Thinking of a solution.  Not sure why you can't fit the plug properly, removing metal till you line up with the top flat, one full turn as suggested above.  All that would be required would be to slot the underlugs. Am I missing something?  Any number of originals have had the barrel set back, probably when the breech got excessively corroded. 


It might work to buy a longer tang breechplug, install it properly regulating it so it comes out matching the top flat by removing metal from the breech plug face, then bending and trimming the tang to fit the inlet closely.  That way the barrel does not get set back if that is a big issue. 

[oldtravler61]

Would do what Rich suggests. He's your friend better safe than sorry. Also for others who might acquire the gun latter on. Building longrifles is always a learning curve. Maybe by showing him how the breech is done on other rifles would be away to show him why it has to be changed. My two cents only.

[Long John]

Do your friend a favor and fix it for him.  A Tennessee rifle would be built with a straight octagon barrel.  Its not hard to pull the barrel, fit the breech plug properly, and yes you will probably have to go a full turn of the barrel, re-slot the barrel tenons and slap it back together.  Its a couple of hours of work if you are familiar with the process.  If he has been your friend that long he has earned a couple of hours of work.

Folks battling cancer need a mission in life to keep them engaged in living and willing to fight the fight.  Keeping his gun-building effort alive is likely to help him stay alive and continue your friendship.

Best regards,

J. Cholin

[smallpatch]

Please stop your friend.  This is one of the most critical joints on the rifle. The only real issue is the barrel pins.  Please convince him to do it right.

[FDR]

Thinking of a solution.  Not sure why you can't fit the plug properly, removing metal till you line up with the top flat, one full turn as suggested above.  All that would be required would be to slot the underlugs. Am I missing something?  Any number of originals have had the barrel set back, probably when the breech got excessively corroded. 

X2

[David R. Pennington]

I had a similar situation but not as critical. An elderly gentleman brought me a rifle he couldn't finish. He was loosing his eye sight. He asked me to install sights. Douglas barrrel, Bob Roller lock, hawken style. When I went to tap the rear sight into the dovetail the lock fell off. He had drilled through lock plate and had a screw tapped into the barrel.   Luckily it was only drilled a short distance, only had about one thread engaged in the intersection of two flats. Hole was no deeper than sight dovetail and a good heavy barrel so I was confident it was still safe. I went ahead and made a side nail washer and mounted lock with a proper side nail into bolster. I had to make a tool to recess the washer and one to cut the inlay for it. Took a lot more time than I had planned to spend on it.
You have a moral obligation to tell him it could be unsafe.

[jerrywh]

 I don't think your doing your friend any favors by letting this go.  I'm sure he would like to know the truth.  As much as some people dislike it when asked to critique something I always tell them the truth.  That is what I want people to do for me. 

[frogwalking]

Thanks folks.   

If I can file the front of the tang/bolster rather than the barrel, the barrel will still fit.  Is there a problem with this idea? 

The 1/16" gap at the end of the bolster will not be noticed.  He has not installed the tang bolt yet so that is not an issue.  I can use a dab of accuraglass behind the bolster, and not have to move the barrel back.  I am sure the bolster does not touch the wood anyway.  If the kit he bought did not tell me this stock is maple, I would swear it is Yellow Poplar.

He has been through two bone marrow transplants, and must take chemo every two weeks in order to stay alive.  He has very good reason to be a little muttled.  The local Boy Scout council is awarding him the silver beaver next month.  I have another great lifelong friend in just about the same condition..  Together they make me feel as if my health issues are nothing.  Thank  you all for telling me what I mostly already knew.

[David R. Pennington]

If I am understanding the problem correctly I would probably make a new breechplug of ample size. Fit it up to barrel correctly and shape tang to come close to existing mortice. My father in law is in similar situation, healthwise.

[M. E. Pering]

Frogwalking, I see no problem with filing the front of the tang/ bolster.  But just so we understand better, does this mean there will be a gap between the breech and the stock?  Is the barrel too far forward such that the barrel breech is not contacting the stock?  Since this is a kit, I assume the lock is pre-inlet?  If that is the case, the position of the barrel is pretty much set in stone, Or the touch hole will not be in the proper position.  A solution to this would be to bend some new barrel lugs that are slightly longer, remove the old ones, refit the new ones, redrill the holes, and then the barrel could be moved into it's proper position.  Knowing these things may give us a better idea to the path toward a proper solution.

Matt

[frogwalking]

Hi Matt.  Yes, there would/will be a gap between the rear of the tang/bolster and the stock.  The inletting is already not good, with gaps on both side of the tang/bolster.  As I said, the stock is about as hard as a piece of Poplar.  I think we will end up accraglassing everything to the back of the barrel, including tang and bolster.  It is not in good condition, but he is trying and I would like to see him get it done.