Ketland Conundrum

[J Hollis]

I may be exposing more of my ignorance than I care to but I have a lock issue that I have been unable to solve.  It is a Chamber's Early Ketland lock that I have on a fowler (I did not build it).Off the gun it functions perfectly. Thumb it back to full cock, drop it down to half cock - whatever you please.  On the gun thumb it to full cock and try to drop it to half cock and it stops just shy. If you tap the back of the hammer at all at this point it falls to the pan.  My first attempt at a solution was to see if the inlet was spacious enough for the internals.  My inlet black tells me that's not the problem.  Any suggestions?

[michaelB.]

maybe this is a possibility... on a rifle I had built a couple of years ago, some darned sloppy work was done by the builder, with one of the problems being that the vent hole liner wasn't filed off flush with the barrel.  you really couldn't see it, but a gun builder at one of our shoots took the lock off and could feel the protrusion which was so slight as to be easily passed over.  The problem you describe with your lock is exactly what this rifle was doing.  Jim simply filed the head of the vent hole liner completely flush and darned if it didn't take care of THAT problem.

Hope you find what the aggravation is and are able to take care of it.  Good Luck.

[bob in the woods]

Is the main spring binding ?    Is the inlet i.e. the support for the lock plate flat /on plane with the barrel ?
Could be tightening up the lock bolts is providing that wee bit of offset that causes the problem. Have you tightened the sear screw too much...I've seen that cause problems.  Hard to diagnose from a distance.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The only difference between these two scenarios is the stock.  So you have wood that is interfering somewhere:  lock too tight against the inlet - cock rubbing the lock panel along the inside edge - mainspring dragging in the mortise - sear or fly being held out of the half cock notch.  Problem is the inlet/wood. 

[SCLoyalist]

Seems like it's got to be either internals binding against wood or something binding against lock bolts.  I'd experiment with shims between the edge of mortise and lock plate to move the lock outboard,  with less tightening of the lock bolts, and/or with trying to drop the hammer to halfcock with the bolts out entirely.  If you can get the lock to function properly in the stock by doing any of those, it might suggest where to focus your attention to define where the interference is and how to correct it.   Good luck with it.

[frogwalking]

I don't see how it can be the fly on this lock, but if you can not find anything else, remove it and see if it works.  It so, it may need a little tweeking.

[StevenV]

loosen the bridle and sear screw ever so slightly. Sometimes they get tightened too tightly and the lock  reacts exactly as you describe. Don't know if with it working outside the gun you put it in the gun without making any adjustments. Steve

[J Hollis]

Thanks for all of the suggestions.  I should be able to spend some time with it tomorrow and see what happens.  Something is still binding in there somewhere. Thanks again!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

He said it works perfectly out of the stock, and binds when in it.  So it's wood that's the problem.

[EC121]

Could be the wood under the sear nose holding pressure against the tumbler.  Smoke the lock internals in a candle flame and install it.  Then work it 4-5 cycles.  There will be a black spot somewhere.

[Jim Horn]

trigger ?

[Mike Brooks]

Could be the wood under the sear nose holding pressure against the tumbler.  Smoke the lock internals in a candle flame and install it.  Then work it 4-5 cycles.  There will be a black spot somewhere.

That would be my guess.

[J Hollis]

Could be the wood under the sear nose holding pressure against the tumbler.  Smoke the lock internals in a candle flame and install it.  Then work it 4-5 cycles.  There will be a black spot somewhere.

As cousin Eddie said - "Bingo".  The lock mortis had been stained along with the rest of the gun and it wasn't easy - for me anyway- to see.  The candle black showed the problem quickly.  The mainspring was a little crowded also.  It's free now as well.  I am pretty disappointed in the guy, or his workers, who made this gun.  That issue should have never left his bench.  I think that business has become completely about production.  How many times have I read on this forum "you get what you pay for"? At least now if I choose to sell this gun I won't be passing on a safety problem.  I appreciate everyone's input.

Jamey

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm pleased that you have it working well.  Every time you beat one of these issues, you gain a little more knowledge and confidence.  And you'll enjoy the rifle so much more now.

[Osprey]

Before you crank too hard on the builder, consider that wood swells and shrinks with humidity and time of year.  Sometimes a gun is finished in the winter and by summer the humidity has swelled wood just a bit to have to go back in and scrape a bit off just as you describe.  From stories I've heard it's not uncommon if the builder and shooter are in different parts of the country, too, dry vs. wet climates and all.

[J Hollis]

Before you crank too hard on the builder, consider that wood swells and shrinks with humidity and time of year.  Sometimes a gun is finished in the winter and by summer the humidity has swelled wood just a bit to have to go back in and scrape a bit off just as you describe.  From stories I've heard it's not uncommon if the builder and shooter are in different parts of the country, too, dry vs. wet climates and all.

That's a good point.  I don't want to take this in that direction.  Let's just say I've had more than one issue and I am ready to move on.  It's a perfectly serviceable firearm.

Mr Sapergia - I agree completely, knocking these little things out build upon one another. 

Thanks again

[michaelB.]

wait just a minute here... with an experienced custom builder of rifles and smooth bores, and let me emphasize the phrase "experienced custom builder" there shouldn't have been a problem, PERIOD.  Maybe this is a bit of left over hemmoriodal aggravation from my own experiences with a builder who was uncaring, barely involved and definately of questional competence and yeah, I got what I paid for and I probably deserve a kick for lack of due dilligence, but bidness is bidness and a written contract, a handshake or a purchase interviews (or even just checking out the area code he's calling from) from a web site for a $ amount for a safe, workable anything should mean something and should not be license for excuses. We excuse too much of too darned many folks, if you ask me.  If I were a custom builder of rifles or smooth bores, I would expect my customers to need ME to know about the difference in humidity between one part of the year and another  and different parts of the country.  They would be looking to ME, and I the builder, should be able to establish some procedures that I should be aware of based my pre-purchase interview with the potential customer.  I just will never agree that especially a custom builder of anything should be excused from at least the attempt to fix all potential problems before they mature, then whooped up upon if he doesn't.  I'm sorry, but presumably this rifle cost a fair bit, and the builder sounds like he just didn't do what could reasonably be expected of him. I say this, because in less than 24 hours, the problem was trouble-shot and fixed.   He deserves to be "cranked on".  You see, that's the difference between a custom builder and a volume production line builder.  Maybe if this company had evolved to a production line where tolerances, fit and finish are a thing of the past, and customer service something that jerks laugh about in the break room, then for sure... excuse away and don't let me stand in your way, but if he or they bill themselves as custom, crank away... he/they deserve it.

[EC121]

I am the opposite.  I have no problem taking a new gun apart.  A lock will occasionally drag a spot.   I have had to work on four different new rifles.  They were functional and safe when delivered but didn't work the way I wanted them to work.  They are no worse for wear and work my way now.  Not that big a deal.  That being said, I didn't pay $3-4000 for the rifles either.  Those I expect to work correctly.  

[bob in the woods]

I guess it's a good thing that my lock inlets are usually on the "generous" side of the coin as far as the internal workings are concerned   

[smallpatch]

Ok, before we totally beat up the original builder...... The proof of a good craftsman and business man is his willingness to take care of any issue that might arise due to those things like wood expansion and swelling.
Those who have never built one of these beauties just don't understand that the tolerances are very small, and some pieces of wood will change in extremes with humidity changes.
I've seen buttplates that were originally files perfectly flush at completion, hang over a full ¼" with those changes.
No one can predict that.  If it's right, and functioning perfectly when it leaves his shop, he'd have to be psychic to predict those issues.
Remember, we are talking about wood that used to be alive, subjected to extremes of weather.  I live in AZ where the humidity is usually single digit, with a gun sent to say PA, where the owner hunts in the rain.
If you designed for those extremes, there would be no wood left for strength.
By the way, this is not my build........ Just saying...... Been there, done that.

[little joe]

It appears that those who have never built guns or worked wood do not understand wood shrinking and expanding due to weather, humidity changes. I have a friend who winters in Arizona and summers in Indiana and we notice several changes in point of impack between the two extreams.

[oldtravler61]

When I retired from the machine shop. Got into wood working as a hobby. The close tolerances. We're an eye  opener. When we measured something it was down to tenths of a thousands. With wood  close could be a quarter of an inch. Like the stock I ordered  2 1/2 x 10" x 60 " Came out 2" x 8"x 54" . Just what I ordered!!! Lol But the curl is awesome. Now to figure trigger pull with that 44" barrel ? Spacers ??

[bob in the woods]

I hear what you say re dimensions but you need to specify [ depending on who you order from ]  dressed or as sawn    .   Ever measure a " 2x4 "  ?     I was pretty annoyed when I specified 2 in thick pine boards for my floor and they came in at 1 3/4 in      I told them my order clearly stated finished size, and sent them back. The guy was a bit miffed with me, but he should have read the order 

[michaelB.]

I'll say one last thing then I won't bother y'all any longer:  I don't have to have built a rifle or even know how to build one to know work that either wasn't done properly, or to even the builder's specifications and also, there are quite a few and I mean quite a few rifles, guns and pistols built in the 1700s and 1800s some of which could and still are being fired today, and on the others many have locks and triggers that are still operable.  Now, what did those gunsmith know and practice that evidently some of the gun builders in here want to be excused for  or from?  That is sure what some of the last few chiding posts sounded like.

Was nice posting here. 

[Dave R]

Learning from past experiences I would recommend NO STAIN IN THE LOCK MORTICE!! It is much easier to identify lock parts dragging on wood that has NOT BEEN STAINED that takes on humidity and swells and causes binding or draging!!