Author Topic: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.  (Read 9097 times)

Offline okawbow

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Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« on: February 08, 2016, 04:55:35 AM »
Hi all

I shot a rifle today, that I'm in the process of building. I wanted to file the sights close to the finished height before I brown the barrel.

The gun is a half stock percussion, 45 cal rifle, with a 1" x 38 1/2" long barrel. The twist rate, as near as I can tell, is about 1 in 56". The rifling is rather shallow for a round ball rifle, at  8 lands and grooves about .007" deep. I don't know who made the barrel. I bought it from someone else who also didn't know, but he thought it was unused. While working on the barrel, I noticed it was made of harder steel than I'm used to working with.

Shooting off the bench at 25 yards, I was not getting acceptable groups. I finally settled on a .440 ball with .015 ticking patch and balistol and water mix for lube. My best powder load was 50 gr. Old Eynesford 3f. At first, I didn't clean between shots. The groups got worse until I started to clean between each shot. After that the groups shrank to about 2" at 25 yards. At 50 yards, the group was 2" low, and about 3" in diameter. I put about 50 shots through the barrel in all.

My last 3 rifles have had Charlie Burton barrels on 2 and Ed Rayl barrel on the last one. All of them shoot as tight as I can hold. Basically 1 hole at 25 yards. They all have deeper rifling.

What do I need to do to get tighter groups with this barrel?

« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 05:46:48 AM by okawbow »
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Offline L. Akers

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2016, 06:08:47 AM »
I think I'd try a .445 ball with .015 patches.  You might try upping your powder charge 5gr at a time and see what that does.

Offline okawbow

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2016, 06:42:18 AM »
I tried up to 65 gr of powder and down to 40 grains with worse accuracy than the 50 grain load. The .440 ball with .015 patch is tight going into the muzzle, but pushes down without overdue strain. The shot patches all look really good, with no fraying or blow by.

I will probably try a .445 ball when I make another order.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

ken

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2016, 07:14:06 AM »
I would go with a heavier patch, 18 or 20 th to grad more ball and the groves. petracelly uses shallow rifling and I had a 50cal that that worded well in  .                                       ken

Offline Daryl

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2016, 07:31:23 AM »
When we had TC's (early 70's) with their .004" deep buttoned rifling & 48" twist, I found I needed to re-crown the muzzle (smooth polished radius to the bottom of the grooves - not coned)  to allow even tighter loading to get it to shoot. I quickly learned to use a .495" ball in the .50 with a 22 thou denim patch (.022") - that is what it took to get that rifle shooting as well as I thought it should. It also needed 85gr. 2F to do this. It would not shoot well with the 3F that was available to us, back then - Curtis & Harvey's.  

Granted, as soon as I started barreling up with Bauska barrels - 48" twists still, but deeper rifling, I got even better accuracy.  A lousy barrel probably will not shoot, no matter what you load it with.  In the 70's, I read about the top Cross Stick shooters at Friendship in the Buffalo Match, using .50's even with over-sized balls and thick patches as well.  I found on targets off a bench, I could just about match what I was reading of their groups sizes, yet I was shooting much lighter rifles & with 'weaker' combinations - I had only just started shooting a Bauska barrel with .028" rifling depth per side. Few would call my ball and patch combinations, weak. In that barrel, I had to use a .457" ball, .009" LARGER than the .448" bore on the rifle, but MAN,with that .022" denim patch, it was accurate. At 50 yards, I could just about stack them one on top of the other. 1/2" groups were the norm.

So- what should you use?  I'd test the barrel further, but be prepared to discard it if it does not produce. Life is too short, to use an inaccurate rifle. I also think your powder charges are too weak to shoot 50yards or further. At 25 yards, EVERYTHING just about should shoot a single hole group. If not, the barrel is suspect. Even most smoothbores will shoot into 1" at 25 yards.

If your accuracy improves with wiping between shots, I think you are not using a tight enough combination. When you load the rifle, THAT patch should be wiping your last shot virtually clean form the bottom of the grooves and the corners as well. There should NOT be any buildup - at all.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 08:59:29 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2016, 07:33:58 AM »
If the grooves are .007 or thereabout,  that's .014 + .45 = .464
A  .440 ball + .015 patch [ x 2 = .030 ]  for a total of .470       That is only 6 thou of compression or 3 thou on either side of the ball.    I like more than that.  As Ken's post suggested, a .445 ball and a heavier patch should do OK       Your shots at 25 yards should be 1 hole. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 07:39:06 AM by bob in the woods »

Offline okawbow

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2016, 04:41:13 PM »
Thanks for the tips, everyone. I'll try a tighter ball and patch. However; I want to use this rifle for wood walks, so I need to be able to load without too many problems.

I have some .451 balls I could try, and I'll get some .445 also.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline Herb

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2016, 06:06:29 PM »
Use Olde Eynsford 2F.  I have used a pound or so of OE 3F in .40, .45, .50, .54 and .58 and have not gotten good accuracy in anything.  Gave two cans away.   But OE 2F and 1 1/2F are great.
Herb

kaintuck

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2016, 07:42:46 PM »
you are spoiled if you have Charles B barrels.......... ;D
I have seen his barrels do 1" at 100yds......and ragged hole at 50.......

that boy can cut steel barrels like nobody's bizness!!!

marc n tomtom

Offline okawbow

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2016, 09:28:54 PM »
Use Olde Eynsford 2F.  I have used a pound or so of OE 3F in .40, .45, .50, .54 and .58 and have not gotten good accuracy in anything.  Gave two cans away.   But OE 2F and 1 1/2F are great.

I have some OE 2f, but didn't have it with with me. I'll try it next time.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2016, 11:32:43 PM »
Swabbing after every shot got started when almost all he replica muzzleloaders had shallow rifling. They shoot just fine, but you have to mop them out after every shot or two. Shallow rifling seals up easier than deep rifling, so bore sized balls, tent canvas, and a hydraulic press, are just plain silly. The 1 in 56 twist is the optimum for a .45 in my opinion, and I am not alone. There are several barrel makers that recommend this twist rate in a .45 cal. Barrel. This caliber and twist combination does require a little stiffer powder charge, so don't be afraid to push the powder charge up a bit.

    Hungry Horse

Offline little joe

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2016, 06:23:04 PM »
Interesting

Offline Daryl

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2016, 09:04:47 PM »
Yep - interesting, but at least in the 70's and 80's, most bench twists were 48". Having to wipe every shot is just plain silly and a waste of time - I'd rather be just shooting, shot after shot after shot after shot - & getting 1-hole 5 shot groups, group after group after group.

If the shooting is constant, shot after shot after shot, without long waits between shooting, then not cleaning works well in every gun I've used and tested.

However, if you have to wait 10 or 30 minutes between loading as sometimes happens in a match, I can see wiping the bore out before loading afresh, as the fouling from the last shot has time to dry out and become 'crunchy'. On trails, this has not made loading difficult, however you want your bore consistent each shot and with time between shots long in some circumstances - like when paper punching, chunk or plank shooting in a contest, I do agree one should then wipe - but not for trail walks or normal shooting - it's just not necessary if you are using a sealing combination.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 07:32:54 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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rhbrink

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2016, 08:31:13 PM »
Yep Interesting! Was at Friendship in the late 70's and early 80's on the bench line shooting offhand standing between the bench cannons of the day and I remember that the 72 inch twist was the norm and some were shooting 90 inch twist. I have in my possession a Ken Bresien barrel made in 1975 as a 54 cal. with a 72 inch twist and I would have considered him the leader of the pack back in the day! Every guy shooting a bench gun that would talk to a offhand shooter was talking slower twist and more powder 200 to 250 grains of the stuff. Maybe the cross stick guys were shooting the 48 inch twist? I never paid much attention to them. Just my experience.

RB

Offline little joe

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2016, 05:45:55 AM »
35-40 yrs ago there was a bbl maker Named Mallott whose shallow grove  bbls  shot very well. Bore size ball and thin tough patch

Offline Daryl

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2016, 08:33:49 PM »
Yep Interesting! Was at Friendship in the late 70's and early 80's on the bench line shooting offhand standing between the bench cannons of the day and I remember that the 72 inch twist was the norm and some were shooting 90 inch twist. I have in my possession a Ken Bresien barrel made in 1975 as a 54 cal. with a 72 inch twist and I would have considered him the leader of the pack back in the day! Every guy shooting a bench gun that would talk to a offhand shooter was talking slower twist and more powder 200 to 250 grains of the stuff. Maybe the cross stick guys were shooting the 48 inch twist? I never paid much attention to them. Just my experience.

RB

Seems to me it was the cross stick "Buffalo Match" that I remember the details on - mid 70's. Heavier than "normal" powder charges and the match was 50yards only.
Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 11:40:37 PM »
What IS the definition of a "shallow groove"?  I've rifles with groove depths ranging from .016" down to one with an - as I've been lead to understand - .006" groove depth.  This particular rifle is a .54 percussion and will put 5 shots in an inch at 60 yards.  The load is a simple .530" ball with a .016" patch pushed out by 60 grains of 3F.  Even much heavier powder charges do as well as the 60 grain load.  I do not swab during shooting sessions and loading pressure/accuracy remain unchanged.  IMHO the rifle's groove depth is not "shallow", as I understand the term; but it is certainly not deep.  Is there any consensus on defining groove depth?
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2016, 08:11:12 PM »
I have measured button rifled, TC's at .0015" depth to .004" in just 3 guns - Friend Tom's, Taylor's and mine. Taylor's was .003", mine .004".  I would call all of those shallow for around ball gun.

All 3 of them were .50's. Tom's and Taylor's rifles shot best with 370gr. lead bullets, while mine shot just fine with round ball - .495" AND a .022" Denim patch  yes. Tom had to paper patch the first couple maxi-balls with cigarette paper so they wouldn't slide out the bore if he tipped the muzzle down while walking.  In my rifle and load, the round ball became elongated somewhat but it shot very well - with 80gr. to 100gr. of 2F- groups at 50 yards were usually one, but a fairly large hole - perhaps 1 1/2" on centres most of the time - so, they will shoot most of the time, but require a tight load.

One thing about them, the barrels were made out of something between peanut butter and real steel (real scientific, I know).  Taylor and I were at a gun club and a fellow couldn't get the load I suggested he use, started in his .50 TC.  He was trying to load a good combination in a factory lathe-cut crown - won't work, too sharp, the corners.  I re-cut the muzzle's angles with my pocket knife, then a slip of emery from my possible's bag, I re-crowned the muzzle & the fellow could then load the tight combination. That was in the early 70's. Maybe they make them out of steel now, I don't know, don't care much, either.

My Pedersoli Kodiak .58 had .007" or .008" rifling. I never thought of it being 'shallow'.  That DR shot well at 50 yards with 82gr. 2F, each barrel making 1" groups for 5 shots, but they were not very close together, crossing (left shooting right & low, right shooting left & high) by 2 1/2"wide  and 5" vertical dispersion. With 100gr. 2F, the rifle would make a round 1 1/2" group for 4 shots, 2 from each barrel.  With 110gr. 2F, the groups were parallel, that is, each barrel shot it's group about 1" apart centred from the other barrel's group, thus groups side by side.

The groups would be 2" to 2 1/2" wide on centre to centre.  For a DR, that's about perfect regulation, as the barrels shoot "centre" at all ranges, never converging, nor diverging. While I did test with the same patches and a .562" ball, I preferred those patches and the slightly more accurate .574"  DEAD SOFT lead ball - I prefer to call it PURE lead, but some meticulous people say it isn't pure as it has up to 1% to 2% foreign metals included, so it isn't "pure" oh well. I also loaded it most of the time with the rifle's little 3/8" hickory rod.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 10:23:47 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Leatherbark

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2016, 02:44:41 PM »
Use Olde Eynsford 2F.  I have used a pound or so of OE 3F in .40, .45, .50, .54 and .58 and have not gotten good accuracy in anything.  Gave two cans away.   But OE 2F and 1 1/2F are great.

I'll be dang.  I went through almost 10 pounds of 3f Ensford with my accuracy going south.  Kept fiddling with weighing balls and changing patch material and ball size and pulling my hair out.  Then I went back to 3 f Goex and everything went back to normal.

My guns didn't like 3 f Old E either

Bob

rhbrink

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2016, 03:27:24 PM »
It seems to me that the 3F O.E. burns a lot hotter that 3F GOEX and maybe faster I did buy some and keep winning the stuff at matches so decided to see if I could make it work. I have found out that if you reduce the charge 10 to 15 grains from your normal charge and use a very tight ball and tough patch combination that it will shoot very well and does burn cleaner than 3F GOEX. Most of the people at my home club don't want to load that tight and do have problems with burning patches. I really like the 2FF O. E. and can see that being my favorite powder I have not used enough 1.5 O. E. to know much about it yet.

My experience your milage may vary.

RB

Offline Daryl

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Re: Round ball Accuracy in a shallow groove barrel.
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2016, 10:24:38 PM »
If indeed, the problem is increased velocity and pressure, a tighter combination is likely the answer. This is the reason most of the lads here use 2F instead of 3F in their .50's through larger bores.

At the same velocity, 2f of any make, generates less pressure (and slower building pressure) than 3F of the same make.  Not only is this logical, Lyman's Data proves it.

It takes a tighter combination to seal a higher pressure load than a lower pressure load.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 08:19:57 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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