Author Topic: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.  (Read 14192 times)

killerD

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first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« on: February 09, 2016, 07:30:20 AM »
Hello all,

I've been toying around with the idea of getting a flintlock for awhile now. I just moved to a new town and need something to come home to. So I think that I'm going to go for it!

This will be my first flintlock and my first kit gun (I've never shot a flintlock). The end goal is to have a big game rifle,  but I have more opportunity to hunt and shoot with a shotgun as it is (muzzleloader season for deer is only two weeks I believe). So my thought is to make a fowler first, just to get my feet wet with the building process, and to learn the operation of a flintlock (I'm pretty proficient with sidelocks and inlines, but I've never been around a flintlock). Then I can do a much better job on prettying up the rifle when/if I make it.

So I've got a few questions!!!

1st off... This will primarily be for flying critters: dove, ducks, the occasional goose, clays, and maybe even quail or pheasant. I'm sure I'll go for small game occasionally and even some turkeys. I'm also alright with shooting round balls at deer or even buck and ball at hogs (which will hold me over until I build the rifle). If I can throw a good enough pattern to knock down a duck at 40 yds, and stone a turkey at 30 yds, then I would be more than happy. I'm a pretty darned good shot with my modern versions. I average about 23/25 on skeet with my 28 ga, and I was bad news on ducks and geese this year. I'm fairly average sized, so most shotguns fit me well: rem 870, franchi affinity, winchester sx3, Beretta o/u 28 ga. If the kit gun won't fit me properly then that would be a huge dissapointment and i won't ever use it.

I've been looking at the Jim chambers kits (which I've read are top notch)...in particular the Pennsylvania fowler.  I like the lines of it, and I like the weight, 6-3/4 lbs.

But how practical is a 46" barrel for wingshooting? I'm all for long barrels, but 46" seems a bit much. But the low weight of the gun may just benefit from the added moment of inertia from the long barrel to smooth out the swing. I really don't know since I haven't felt one. Any input? (I love my 30" barreled 28 ga o/u)

So although I like the looks of the PA Fowler... Is there a better kit out there that would suit my needs better?

Would a 20 ga work for me? I realize that a 20 ga isn't ideal for ducks, but I do fine with a modern 20 on ducks. (It seems that a 12 or 10 would be easier to get a decent pattern with a flinter).

Can you use modern wads in a flintlock? I'm not trying to be a strict traditionalist, so if it takes using modern wads to get the pattern density I need then I would do it. (I forsee a lot of scientific method going on with a fowler! I'd prefer to keep it simple though!)

Can you use steel shot through these? I'm assuming not. So what's the preferred non-tox? NICE shot? iTX? Hevi? Any others?

I'd probably get it jug choked (unless there's a reason not to, I'm open to input). is it fair to assume that a modified choke in a modern gun is equivalent to a modified choke in a flintlock? And If I get it choked to a modified, can I still shoot round balls through it?

As far as the build goes...

Are there any good resources for showing what is exactly involved in the building of a chambers kit? (I would kind of like to see what tools I would need).

Are there any other videos or books worth taking a look at?

And lastly...

Are there any clubs, events or anything like that in the Dallas area?

Thanks for your help. (And sorry for the long post!)

-killerD

Offline smallpatch

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2016, 07:52:30 AM »
I love the look of the long barrels, but not swinging them.
Dunlap makes an English half stock in 12 or 10 gage.
That would be my choice for wing shooting.
I have a 20g Type G that I love, but not for wing shooting.
Jug choking is the way to go.  I've built several Chambrrs NE fowler so in 10g.  With a jug choke, they shoot roundballs like crazy, and I've put 19 kill shots on a turkey head target at 50 yes consistently.

As far as books..... Recreating the American Longrifles, and The Art of Building the Penn/Ky Longrifle by Dixon, are the easiest and most valuable you can own.
Hope that helps.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2016, 02:56:24 PM »
I'd go with chambers New England fowler in 10 bore and get it jugged. I don't have any problem swinging long barrels. Build a rifle for deer.
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thimble rig

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2016, 04:59:13 PM »
google nmlra .org and they should have a list of charter clubs that might be in youre area.

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2016, 06:06:26 PM »
Didn't someone make a video on building a Chambers kit?  Found it.... http://www.flintlocks.com/parts.htm  Scroll to the bottom of the page.

-Ron
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 06:10:20 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Online bob in the woods

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2016, 07:30:46 PM »
My Chambers New England fowling gun in 10 bore has brought ducks, geese, turkeys, deer, and bear to my table.
It is my most used gun.  Last year I built the Chambers Officer's fusil . It's a 20 bore with a 41 inch barrel.  Light in hand and quick in the brush, it is now my partridge gun.  Either of these would serve you well.
Also, to answer your question, I don't use or need modern wads in these guns.  Forget them.

Turtle

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 07:59:48 PM »
My 2 cents-first build? go with an inexpensive,plain wood fowler. There I said it.
                                                                  Rich

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2016, 01:11:08 AM »
google nmlra .org and they should have a list of charter clubs that might be in youre area.

killerD,

Yes, we (NMLRA) have 5 Charter Clubs in Texas, including this one in the Dallas area http://nmlra.org/business-directory/1418/dallas-muzzle-loading-gun-club/  Hook up with them and you might well find an experienced builder in the club who would be willing to guide you through your first build.  Being new to flintlocks, you might also consider getting Eric Bye's book https://nmlrashop-org.3dcartstores.com/Flintlocks--a-Practical-Guide-for-their-Use-and-Appreciation-_p_1.html.  There is a lot of good information in there for someone just getting into flintlocks.

Mole Eyes
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killerD

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2016, 02:52:53 AM »
thanks for the replies on the resources!!! I thought Jim had a video, I just couldn't find it on his website initially.

And thanks for the dallas contacts mole eyes. Any idea if there's any local shoots or gatherings coming up?

I hear ya turtle... any other kits I should look at? I'm a romantic when it comes to wood, so the $100 more for a better figure is well worth it! (even if I did screw it up...if I made it out of a plain piece of wood I'd always regret it! Plus I want some practice inletting and staining the grain of the more difficult and fancier wood). I'll probably let the wood do the talking for now and avoid any carving of designs.

I see that there is a lot of love for the 10 ga new England fowler. The website shows that its about 8 lbs...and with the 46" long barrel that seems like it may be pretty tough to swing on a quick duck in the decoys. Realistically I try to call the shot when the ducks are under 30 yds (with my first shot usually being around 25 yds, but out to 40 yds on occasion). Can you guys provide some input on that sort of situation in regards to using the 10 ga?

Also how's the accuracy of a roundball out of the 10 or 12 ga guns? I'm still learning but it seems that high velocity is the key to smoothbore accuracy...which would be harder to maintain with the larger balls (id imagine).

Is it possible to shoot steel shot out of flintlocks? My only other reservation with getting the 10 or 12 ga is that if I'm forced to use non-toxic shot,  an ounce of #4's should outperform any of the steel loads i've been using in my modern guns. I'm sure a 1 oz load would pattern great out of a 10 ga, but I bet I could get it to pattern out of a 20 ga well enough to suit my needs. Then I would have a much livelier gun for the close in ducks. However if you can use steel, then the benefits of a 12 ga are obvious.

I like your quote bob, "Light in the hands and quick in the brush". I can make that kind of gun work for my duck hunting, but its hard to use a "heavy in the hand, slow in the brush" gun for smaller birds. Example 1, I used my 28 ga modern gun for a duck hunt this year on a real tight hole. with 5/8 oz of steel 4's I dropped 3 mallards in 4 shots. I'd take a gun that I can put exactly on the target with a small effective pattern, over a gun that is a little harder to point with a large effective pattern.

I know that i'm kind of rambling in a circle. I think I would enjoy a livelier gun...such as the PA fowler or officers fusil in a 20 ga and 7 lbs or less. But if I cant get decent enough patterns for my duck hunting with a 20 ga then the 12 or 10 in the new England fowler is an obvious choice.

I'm far from an expert on jug choking. It looks like they just do a undercut into the barrel with tapers on both ends?
Would having an improved modified or full choked barrel cause any issues with shooting round balls?
And if you can shoot steel safely through a flinter... Is jug choking a bad idea? (it seems like it could be a bad idea!!! Lol).

If it makes any difference in the choice...I'm 26 years old, have great eyes and good strength, recoil isn't too much of an issue, and the only times that im only cocky are when it comes to shooting stuff!!! (hence the need for a flinter to humble myself... it gets pretty boring sitting there for hours waiting for the rest of the crew to shoot their limits!)...  ;)

Offline Joe S.

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2016, 03:25:54 AM »
You will probably or should be pretty humble while attempting to build your Fowler.It has a way of doing that to the best of us ;)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2016, 03:50:07 AM »
Lots of questions there, love the enthusiasm.

A flintlock for ducks to 40 yards is possible I guess but you will definitely need a jug choke.  I don't know anybody using steel shot but of course if you used commercial steel shot wads they would work top protect your bore.  I don't know anybody who has used a jug choke with steel shot and modern shot cups. 

More than half your questions are shooting questions.
I would go to the shooting forum and ask for advice for hunting waterfowl with steel shot in a flinter: recommended gauge, barrel length, loading with steel shot, practical ranges attainable.

When you ask your questions, keep in mind we like guns built like original flintlocks here.  Not so many want to replicate modern gun styles in barrel lengths, etc.  So if people recommend long barrels, it is because they work and they are what was used.  Does not mean a shorter barrel could not or would not work.  But most here won't like such a gun unless you want to use a coach gun for waterfowl.

When you get experienced advice about shooting waterfowl with a flintlock, come back here for advice on which kits folks would recommend that fit the specs you need.
Andover, Vermont

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 03:56:08 AM »
At a measured 35 yds I put 4 rounds into an inch and a half. That's using my paper cartridges with round ball
2 to 3 inches is pretty much standard . At 50 yds I have no problem dropping deer.  If you practice, and the ranges you would take a shot are within those limits, the smoothbore would be perfectly adequate using a round ball.  I wouldn't use steel shot in mine, but for the amount of waterfowl I shoot, bismuth works just fine.
The smaller the bore, the longer the shot column . I like the larger bore for waterfowl because I can and do shoot heavy shot loads.  The pattern is very good.  I wish you could see and handle both the N.E. fowler and the Officer's fusil.  You would make up your mind instantly.....and probably end up wanting both. :)

killerD

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2016, 04:25:34 AM »
Haha...thanks rich. You're probably right. I have a tendency to try to identify and analyze all of the variables...hence all of the questions in one spot!!! (leave it to the Engineer!!!)

I'll head over to the shooting forum and poke around a bit!

And having not handled a fowler...all I have is my experience with modern guns. The long barrels don't bother me too much. I imagine that they would handle similar to a over and under. I'm probably going to refrain from doing any MOI calculations though! (I think the formula is (ML^3)/3 or something like tha...yeah I'm a nerd). I'm not too concerned with being "traditional", but I might as well if I can!

Bob! I wish I could handle them both!!! You're not in Texas are you!!!???!!! Haha
Thankfully being single...my wants and needs are fairly closely aligned...and I don't have to ask for permission!!! ;)

I think I may feel stupid hunting dove with a 10 gauge! Lol



Offline moleeyes36

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2016, 07:00:55 AM »
killerD,

I'm sure when you contact the Dallas club they can tell you about any upcoming local shoots and events.  Also, If you want to take a road trip, the Western National Shoot is the first week in March in the Phoenix, AZ area http://nmlra.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/wns2016shootersponsorship-1.pdf


Mole Eyes
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NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2016, 03:33:44 PM »
First off, if you want a gun to handle like a modern gun then hunt with a modern gun. Ducks weren't shot on the wing with these long fowlers in the old days, they were shot on the water or just rising. That being said, with some practice you'll be able to wing shoot anything you want with a gun with a 46" barrel. In fact the lock time will bother you more than the length of the barrel. I have shot skeet and sporting clays with barrels as long as 48" and done well.
 As far as the kits you mention from  Chambers I have built them all. As far as wing shooting goes it's a toss up between the officer's fusil and the NE fowling gun. If you're shooting ducks I'd go with the NE fowler and get it jugged, probably a strong modified. My customers tell me you can shoot round ball out of a jug with no problems. You are not going to shoot steel out of these guns, get that out of your head. Steel will rip the guts out of your barrel. 1 oz. is a fairy load. With a 10 or 12 you'll be looking at 1 3/8 to 1 5/8 oz. , maybe more. I'd look at bisimuth or some of this heavy shot crapola. Well, no I wouldn't, I'd shoot lead. Laws are made to be broken. Of course I live a little closer to the edge than most folks do.
Here's some inspiration for you.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/kitgun2.html

http://www.fowlingguns.com/kitgun4.html
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Bill Ladd

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 04:00:11 PM »
Dang Mike. Niiice.  Soon as I win the lottery I'm calling you to build me a gun.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 04:00:46 PM by Bill Ladd »

Offline Dave Marsh

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 04:29:26 PM »
Beautiful guns Mike.  Ole No. 266 is classic to me.  :)


Dave
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Offline Daryl

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2016, 07:12:08 PM »
Taylor will agree (I think), this one, made by a fellow named Hunkeler shoots every well indeed. It has a short 32" bl., is 20 bore and has a muzzle choke about IMP Cyl. It shoots modified patterns and is easy loading with round ball or shot.



Daryl

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 07:16:08 PM »
Taylor will agree (I think), this one, made by a fellow named Hunkeler shoots every well indeed. It has a short 32" bl., is 20 bore and has a muzzle choke about IMP Cyl. It shoots modified patterns and is easy loading with round ball or shot.





Mighty fine.My favorite style of muzzle loader in smooth bore or rifles.

Bob Roller

Offline gunmaker

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 08:02:19 PM »
That Hunkeler gun is very close to my 10 bore, 34" barrel, only a lefty like me....7 lb. and really shoots a nice pattern at 30 yd.....Tom

killerD

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 09:30:38 PM »
Mike...you're a brutally honest man aren't ya? haha. The odds of me getting checked increase exponentially if im doing something wrong! that's just my luck! I also run around on public land. So i'll probably skip the lead for ducks! But i'm young enough to never know what its like to hunt fowl with lead. So the performance non-tox will be amazing! especially with my "fairy" loads! haha.

I really like your work. Kit gun 2 looks very nice. Hopefully I can stumble my way to something similar!

Now im debating a 16 bore...that may be a better combo of shot amount, weight, and round ball size for me.  Does anyone know of a 16 bore kit? I cant seem to find one.

Daryl,

That's a very clean build. I like it! thanks for sharing!

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2016, 12:11:43 AM »
Quote
Now im debating a 16 bore...that may be a better combo of shot amount, weight, and round ball size for me.  Does anyone know of a 16 bore kit? I cant seem to find one.
I think any kit that uses a Colerain 20 will work with a Colerain 16 of the same length/profile. I know the last 44" Colerain 20 I had was identical to the 44" Colerain 16 I used. Plus the 16 will be lighter.
Dennis
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 12:40:05 AM »
I built probably 1/2 dozen 16 bores in the past year, very popular bore choice for wing shooters.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

killerD

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2016, 01:49:07 AM »
Dennis!!!!! You are on to something there!!! Thanks for pointing that out to me!!!

Could a feller make a switch barrel flintlock? Say.... fit the gun for both a Colerain turkey barrel (for turkeys ;))and a 16 bore (for flying critters and walking critters!)...and it looks that they even have a .58 cal rifle barrel with the same profile! (C profile)

That may be a neat setup!!!

It looks like track of the wolf may be able to sort me with a tulle fusil if I went that route. Im just not a huge fan of the tulle fusil look

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKitDetail.aspx/601/1/FRENCH-TULLE-FUSIL-DE-CHASSE-44-PARTS-LIST/FUSIL-2-44-OCTAGON-TO-ROUND

It also looks like Tennessee valley muzzleloading has something.

I'll do some more research on that option later tonight.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: first post. thinking of first kit. fowler questions.
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2016, 02:25:22 PM »
You don't want a colerain turkey barrel.
You don't want a tulle for wing shooting.
You don't want a TVM over a Chambers.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?