wingshooting with a flintlock

[killerD]

I'm looking to get a flintlock kit, but I need some input. The main kits I'm looking at are Jim chambers PA fowler or his new england fowler. But I'm open to other options. I've never shot a flintlock or fowler, but I am competant with sidelocks and modern shotguns. I'm looking for an all purpose fowler, with the focus being good handling. Clays, dove, ducks, maybe even some roundballs for bigger game, and shot for small game. I do hunt a lot of ducks, I use decoys, so I usually get them within 35 yds or closer.


For waterfowl...Do you have to stick to fancy non-toxic for flintlocks?(itx or bismuth) Or can you use steel shot? If so can you use steel shot in a jug choked barrel? ( my guess is no!)

I really like the lines and the weight of the PA fowler, but don't know how she'll handle (46" barrel, 6-3/4 lbs). Its is only a 20 ga. But I have no issues hunting with modern 20's with 7/8s oz of steel...so would a man with a jug choked 20 ga with a LM, Mod, or IM choke using an ounce of itx be able to throw a decent and even pattern out to 35-40 yards?

What about the New england fowler in 10 or 12 ga? At 8 lbs with a 46" barrel, it sounds like it may be a bear to get on and stay with fast moving ducks. But I imagine the patterns are much fuller with 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 oz of shot. However with itx or bismuth that amount of shot seems like overkill.

Do you guys have any input on wingshooting with a 46" barrel?

[bob in the woods]

I use my N E fowler for ducks and geese. These are hunted over a beaver pond on my property. I have no problem with the 46 in barrel, and can get on the birds without any trouble. Let's face it...you've got one shot only.  Let the gun work for you, and you'll be fine . That's what these guns were designed for.
Partridge in the woods get me rattled every time they "explode" off.  They received a college education from my 10 bore over the years, but the 20 seems to be turning the tide in my favour

[killerD]

Have you ever tried bismuth out of the 20ga?

Your swaying me towards the 20 ga, handling characteristics are a top priority, I can always choke it pretty tight if that's what it takes to get a decent pattern. How would you rate your 20 ga for 30 yd or so crossing shots? Does the longer barrel keep the swing it pretty smooth?

[Nordnecker]

There are many here much more knowledgable than me. My first build was a smoothie that I hoped to use like you. I haven't hunted with it much and never worked up a non-toxic load. Firing this gun at a moving target was a real learning curve for me. While target shooting it goes off instantly. At a moving target it seems like S L O W motion. Mine doesn't pattern well with shot larger than #5.

[smallpatch]

Killer,
Check out Dunlap Woodcraft.  They have an English fowler in either 12 or 10 ga with a 37" barrel.

It is half stock, and should swing nicely.

[axelp]

There are other options-- ITX non-toxic shot made by TomBob Outdoors in PA, works great in flintlock smoothbores. We Californios can no longer use lead shot for upland game as of this year. I have used ITX off and on since 2008.

K

[bob in the woods]

From the feed back , I think you'd be happy with the 20.  In my 10 I've shot 2 oz of shot a lot, depending on what I'm after.  My gun loves #4 shot.  The 20 does well with #6 , but I've shot a bunch of #4 in it as well.
Haven't tried bismuth in the 20.  I sometimes get bismuth mixed up with my lead shot, but that's life.
[ My property, my pond, my rules    ]  There's not really any difference as far as shooting goes.

[Hungry Horse]

I have found that a .20 gauge is a little light for waterfowl hunting. But, I must admit I do little waterfowling. I do however have a good friend that is hopelessly addicted to being cold, and wet, and muddy. He had a .12 gauge fowler with a 42" barrel that he did pretty good with, but wanted something that didn't beat him up so much with heavy goose loads. He built a New England club butt fowler, in 12 gauge, with a 46" barrel, and loves it. He says the heavy, wide, butt makes it quite comfortable to shoot with heavy charges.

  Hungry Horse

[bob in the woods]

Now here is something I should have thought of before. Why not just order a 16 bore gun from Mike Brooks ?

[killerD]

bob,

A 16 bore would be absolutely perfect for me!!! I haven't seen many kits with that option though! I'll give Mike's Website a look.

For the way I hunt waterfowl... the majority of my shots are under 35 yds. This year we dropped 165 ducks and geese over my decoys. I bet that 75% of the shots were between 25-35 yds. 10% under 25 yards and 15% from 35-50+ yds (and these shots were usually the 3rd shot from a semi-auto, my first shots are almost always under 40 yds).
Basically what I'm getting at is that 7/8 oz of steel 4's out of my modern 20 ga is fine for most of my work.

One ounce of bismuth 4's is overkill for what I need (assuming a decent even pattern, like a modified). I'm not a sucker of magnumitis when it comes to duck hunting, and I probably wont be using a flintlock on a dedicated goose hunt (a goose hunt is too much work!!! and the limits are much more liberal where im at).

As far as load development goes, i'll probably start with an ounce of bismuth or ITX regardless of what gauge I end up with.

Another thing is that a 10 ga round ball is huge!!! I'm sure it has one h*^& of a punch on deer, but that size of a ball will eat through my lead stores quickly!!! 598 gr? holy smokes that's a big ball!!! haha

[Robby]

Killer, for the majority of fowling I do I use a sixteen Ga.. It is jug choked and still throws a round ball with good accuracy. I use it for Turkeys, ducks, geese, and trap shooting. Before jugging it I was limiting myself to twenty five yards, with the choke I feel confident out to forty. Typically I use 80gr. of ff and about an ounce and a half of shot by measure from an English or Irish shot thrower. Comfortable to shoot even repeated shots at trap it doesn't beat the $#@* out of a man.
Just took out a .69, 14Ga. Hudson Valley fowler this past weekend. Recently finished and wanted to try it out. Liked what I found with both shot and ball, a little more finessing with the loads and other variables and I may be smitten.
The twelve is a bit much for me and I felt the twenty was too light. The 16 seemed to fit me just right, and this 14 is like a 16 magnum, Hah!
Robby

[killerD]

I like it!!!! So where do I get a 14 or 16 gauge kit??? 

What level of choke did you go with Robby?

[Dennis Glazener]

I will relate my experience with fowlers/smoothbores for what its worth. My background in hunting has always been upland game. I wanted to try a ML and ran across a 54 caliber smoothbore at a good price. I think that relates to around a 28 GA. Since I used to shoot skeet with a 20 ga and did very well I thought the 28 might be ok for what I wanted it for. I tried it and never could get it to pattern worth 2 cents so I sold it. Built a 20 Ga and it was better but I still could not get what I called a decent pattern and the thing kicked like a mule with hunting loads (around 3 Dram Eqv, 1 to 1 1/8 oz of shot). Sold it and tried a friends 20 and got about the same type of pattern and it too kicked like a mule.

Built a 16 bore using a 44" Colerain barrel, loved it except for the weight and awkwardness. This gun patterned beautifully with 1.25 - 1.50 oz of #8 or #6's. Loaded 3.5 Dram Eqv and recoil was not bad at all. Sold this one to build one with a shorter barrel (think quick upland gun). James Roger's showed me photos/dimensions of an original Richardson (English) fowler barrel that he had access to. It was 1.38 at the breech and tapered quickly to around an inch about 8 inches from the breech, then down to .784 28" from the breech then started to get larger toward the muzzle. The muzzle measures .898 but this is due to a short belling similar to a small blunderbus at the muzzle (really helps when loading). I am told that the English flared the muzzle with a swage but I turned mine on a lathe (Charles Burton made the barrel for me and he followed the original barrel dimensions which left a very thick wall at the muzzle. I turned the wall thickness to match the original contour. This barrel is 39 1/8" and I love it.

Bob Roller did his magic to one of the Davis Twigg locks and the lock seems to be faster than the normal early Ketland or Colonial Roundface locks but not as fast as the late Ketlands I am used to shooting on my rifles. This fowler is not lightweight but it handles so much better than the one I built using the same type stock profile with the 44 inch Colerain. I believe recoil to be less. I think the reason for the better handling is that the weight is in the mid-section of the gun. I finished this one last fall but I still have not had time to really work-up a load with it. What little I have shot it I believe it will pattern well. I know it handles better and that was the main thing I was looking for.

Oh, I fired a few 16 bore round balls in it and even with improper patching material I was pleased with the accuracy at 40 yards.

If I were to build another one using the Richardson barrel specs, I would make it a 14 bore the original was 14 bore these dimensions.
Dennis

[killerD]

Dennis,

It sounds like you've played the game that I'm about to attempt....trying to find the smallest gauge that will effectively accomplish the task at hand, so as to have improved handling due to a lighter weight and better balance.

Its all apples to oranges but...I know that in modern guns in modern wads I can throw an effective pattern with 7/8-1 oz of steel with a modified choke (granted that steel patterns better than lead or bismuth due to its hardness). But with using softer shot, and no wad, will it require ___ oz of shot to get a similar pattern? (rhetorical). Or maybe I could get away with using a full choked 20 ga flinter with 1 oz of shot?

That's kind of the balance I'm trying to find at this point....and im just trying to learn from this forums trials and errors. The obvious choice is to go bigger just so I don't end up with a gun that I deem ineffective.

[Robby]

Killer, The 16Ga. I took to full choke and if I remember correctly that was about .030 total material at its widest, over about a 2-1/2" to 3" span, the 14Ga. is about a modified and I think it was a max. of between .015 to .020. Can't remember, and they say the legs are the first to go, Hah!
I don't know about kits, but I would think that any Ga. could be substituted if the exterior dimensions of the barrel are the same, in any particular kit.
Robby

[Mike Brooks]

bob,

A 16 bore would be absolutely perfect for me!!! I haven't seen many kits with that option though! I'll give Mike's Website a look.

For the way I hunt waterfowl... the majority of my shots are under 35 yds. This year we dropped 165 ducks and geese over my decoys. I bet that 75% of the shots were between 25-35 yds. 10% under 25 yards and 15% from 35-50+ yds (and these shots were usually the 3rd shot from a semi-auto, my first shots are almost always under 40 yds).
Basically what I'm getting at is that 7/8 oz of steel 4's out of my modern 20 ga is fine for most of my work.

One ounce of bismuth 4's is overkill for what I need (assuming a decent even pattern, like a modified). I'm not a sucker of magnumitis when it comes to duck hunting, and I probably wont be using a flintlock on a dedicated goose hunt (a goose hunt is too much work!!! and the limits are much more liberal where im at).

As far as load development goes, i'll probably start with an ounce of bismuth or ITX regardless of what gauge I end up with.

Another thing is that a 10 ga round ball is huge!!! I'm sure it has one h*^& of a punch on deer, but that size of a ball will eat through my lead stores quickly!!! 598 gr? holy smokes that's a big ball!!! haha

If you're looking at something I do, this clubb butt fowling gun has great architecture for a fowling gun. Not much recoil and points naturally. I think this one had a 46" barrel and was 11 bore. Could be made in 16 bore. price is somewhat reasonable with out a butt plate etc. 8 4/4 lbs and jugged full with a curly ash stock.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/mikesclubbutt.html

[Daryl]

I have not used my 20 bore flint for upland birds, however I have shot trap with it.  I normally swing shoot with a modern gun, or cap-lock. That is, I come up from behind the bird and as soon as the muzzle 'covers' it, BLAM - broken bird!. With the flint lock I was consistently shooting behind, so now I pass the bird by a foot or 10" and FaBLAM - broken bird with the flint gun.

Of course, the extra 'lead' was necessary for the natural"speed" of my gun's ignition and the velocity of my charge. I use 3 drams and 1 1/8oz. shot. This system works at all ranges, btw and I shoot caplocks on wing shooting, the same as a modern gun. I see no difference.

[killerD]

Mike,

I like the look of the comb on that club butt. And the club butt itself is pretty unique (to my untrained eye). I could definitely warm up to that gun!  

I dug around a bit more on your website.

I really do like the chambers NE fowler you built with super curly maple.

I also like the slimness of your Birmingham fowler profile.
Something like that with a 16 bore barrel. maybe around 7 to 7-1/2 lbs with a highly figured stock would probably make me pretty happy. If I we start creeping up to 8 lbs then I might as well get the NE fowler in a 10ga.

I am wanting to at least start learning the gun building process with a kit. Maybe some final inletting and fitting, a small bit of wood shaping, and  the metal and wood finishing.

[Mike Brooks]

As a side note, that curly NE fowling gun was completely shattered through the lock/wrist area when I got ahold of it. I got out my magic Woo-Woo stick, mumbled some  secret mumbo jumbo and presto-changeo it's now fixed.  
 BTW, With a properly balanced gun, weight is irrelevant. I had a 1880's vintage L.C. Smith SxS in 10 bore that weighed 12 lbs. It spent it's entire life slaughtering duck and geese, it being a big gun wasn't a problem. Not the sort of gun for walking upland, but it was ideal for resting in the boat or duck blind until it was needed.

[killerD]

Dang Mike!!! you've got one heck of a woo woo stick. That's some good work!

So would you say that the NE fowler is properly balanced?

I also have a heavy 10 gauge that I break out for funsies on occasion... an Ithaca Mag-10. 11+ lbs and a 32" barrel, but id call it fairly balanced. Its pretty hard to hit anything under 35 yds with it because its so hard to get swinging. But from 35-50 yds it's deadly! However my experience with that gun is what i'm trying to avoid if that makes sense. My fear is that the 46" barrel (even in a 8 lb gun), may make it respond sluggishly. But at the same time I guess it makes sense to have a bit more weight to improve your follow through due to the lock time.

I cant imagine that it would be that big of a deal to chop a few inches off of the barrel and the stock if I decide 46" is too long.  Then respace the thimbles and underlugs if necessary.


I will probably be doing a lot of walking with this flintlock...So 8 lbs isn't terrible (but 7-1/2 lbs is better!  )

I must admit that I have an affinity for dainty shotguns!

[Mike Brooks]

Yes, in my opinion it balances well. If I recall it balances just ahead of the lock, maybe 4 to 6".

[Dan'l 1946]

  I've got a 10 gauge fowler with a 48" barrel that weighs a tick under 8 pounds.  It swings just fine and recoil is barely noticeable with 1 1/2 ounce loads. It balances and carries sweetly. Balance is the key I think, rather than weight or barrel length.
                                  Dan