What happens when you don't swab between shots?

[bones92]

It seems that if one did not swab the bore between shots, that the process of pushing a PRB down the bore would cause a bit of a layer of fouling and soot to form between the powder and PRB by the time loading is complete.  I say this based on the amount of black fouling stuck to a patch after swabbing (and the assumption that even more of the fouling was pushed and left at the bottom of the barrel).

Just curious what effect this might have on powder.

Also, I'm thinking of designs for an improved jag that would expand and tighten inside the bore only when it's all the way at the bottom of the barrel.   This would enable one to pull all the fouling out of the barrel, instead of pushing most of it to the bottom of the barrel.

[L. Akers]

Pushing a patched ball down a dirty barrel does, as you say, push fouling down ahead of it but it is blown out when the shot is fired. 

To comment on your improved jag idea, I will say that if your jag/patch combo is correct the jag/patch will go down loosely and not push crud to the breech then as it is withdrawn the patch will wad up behind the jag, tighten in the bore and pull the fouling out.

[54Bucks]

 I think that the need to "swab" between shots only reflects something wrong with a ball/patch/lube combination. As for fouling being pushed down the barrel.... again that tells me there is something wrong my load combination. If there is excessive fouling left in the bore.... it seems a swab would push it towards the breech just as another load would. But with the proper load combination, which includes proper lube function, most of the fouling is placed forward of the fresh powder charge which is then expelled during the next shot. If that combination(patch/lube/ball) seals the bore on the way out as it's supposed to.

[Daryl]

Everyone here probably knows I am a strong proponent for using a combination that does not REQUIRE wiping between shots & not wiping for an entire day's shooting. 

Now, IF I was in a competition that required long periods of time between shots, like a Wyoming Plank shoot, or an Eastern Chunk Match where posting new targets between shots was necessary and there was 10, 15 or more minutes between shots, I-too would wipe and dry the bore before loading fresh. 

I would also HAVE to develop a load for the rifle that shot well using this exact process.  The rifle used and cleaned in this manner will likely require a different load than when shot as normal 'dirty' and of course, quite likely would need different sighting as the POI would most likely be different than my 'normal' trail load produces.

[Mike Brooks]

What happens when you don't swab between shots?

Nothin.

[WKevinD]

  What happens when you don't swab between shots?

I get to shoot more.... with the right ball/patch/lube combination.

[hanshi]

Daryl, Mike Brooks and 54Bucks tell it all.  A tight prb combo and a liquid lube require NO wiping.

[bones92]

By liquid lube, you mean one that is wet to the touch?   I have been using Lehigh Valley Lube sprayed onto the patches.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Patches lubed with a liquid lube need to be dripping wet.

[wayback40]

Won't a patch that is "dripping wet" impact the powder charge?

[yardhunter]

I usually don't swab till 5-6 shots or sometimes ooner if it gets too hard to seat the ball.

[bones92]

Won't a patch that is "dripping wet" impact the powder charge?

 

That's what I'm wondering,  too.

Hmmm, unless the lube is drawn from the patch as it goes down the barrel, so that the bore is coated and the patch is not as wet when fully seated, perhaps.

[54Bucks]

The 1st point is that we are talking about numerous consecutive shots at the range or such vs a hunting situation. My opinion is that a very wet patched/ball combination is not a problem regarding the powder charge when it's finally seated. It has done it's job cleaning up powder residue and leaving a trace of "lube" in the bore. That's a lot of tight bore surface to cover from the muzzle to the top of the powder charge! In a hunting situation where the lubed-patched ball sets on top of the powder charge for an extended period, I prefer a different lube such as Tracks Mink Oil. In a hunting situation I'm not depending on the lube for cleaning purposes or to avoid dampening the powder charge.

[WadePatton]

More overthinkin'. 

Great luck on your product (think expansion plug) and you best market them to another group of shooters (than this one).

 

[Bill Ladd]

I use a sloppy wet (with spit) pillow ticking patch, cut at the muzzle. Last weekend I shot at least 50 rounds at the range. No swabbing between shots, hit where the muzzle was pointed every time, easy cleanup later that evening.

[bones92]

More overthinkin'.  

Great luck on your product (think expansion plug) and you best market them to another group of shooters (than this one).

 

Granted, my experience is limited, based on my own observations.  Perhaps my jags are too big, and should be ground down a bit in size (or better yet, find a jag slightly smaller than advertised bore size).  If I can find a jag/patch combination that can go down easy and come up with a tight fit, then that probably would address my concern.   I'm not trying to create solutions to problems that don't exist, by no means!  

Okay, I will try a wetter patch next time out.   And if the PRB does push a bit of fouling down with it, that fouling might act as a bit of a buffer between a wet patch and the powder.   

Basically, I want to reduce the amount I'm having to swab the bore between shots.  I spend a lot of time (and patches) currently.

[54Bucks]

 Some barrels such as Thomson Center do have more shallow rifling depth than say a Rice. Those shallow "grooved" barrels are much more sensitive to any fouling build-up. Perhaps that's the beast?

[little joe]

There are many thoughts on this. This is for line shooting not hunting. I use mostly Rice  radius cut groves. My jag for a 36 cal will be  32 cal jag and a bigger cleaning patch. In the mid west we have quite a lot of humidity that can effect the residue from BP. A .350 ball .022 patch, saliva for lube 30 grs. of 3f  and I can shoot many shots 15-30 or more depending on the humidity. The idea of wiping between shots is in target shooting, each shot is the same. Some barrels as they get dirty will start shooting higher due to more pressure, due to more resistance. Also remember the more powder charge and coarseness of the powder the more residue you make. The above is what works for me however there is always room for improvement.  My 36 and I can give the younger guys a run for there money off the bench. I,m 74 and and too broke down for off hand anymore. There are many challanges in shooting and I think off hand, flint lock is a good try at ones skill.

[Daryl]

Some barrels such as Thomson Center do have more shallow rifling depth than say a Rice. Those shallow "grooved" barrels are much more sensitive to any fouling build-up. Perhaps that's the beast?

The only fouling buildup, is in the breech 'powder chamber area'.  The rest of the bore is wiped when the next shot is loaded. There is no buildup.

We use an oil, like Neetsfoot Oil, or a grease, like Track's Mink Oil for patch lube when hunting. NEVER use a water based lube for hunting and I would include "straight" Ballistol in that NEVER statement as well. Ballistol, being water soluble, will or may absorb moisture from the air- you so not want that in your bore.  It may make as good a lube for target shooting, as any other water based lube, but since I have never used it for this, do your own experimenting on that topic.  I would NEVER use it or any other water soluble lube for hunting where the gun may be loaded for a day or a month or more.

All of my guns will shoot all day long without EVER needing to be wiped, when using Neetsfoot oil or Mink OIl for a lube.

[Daryl]

I usually don't swab till 5-6 shots or sometimes ooner if it gets too hard to seat the ball.

This 'necessity' to wipe at any time, shows your patch is too thin, or the ball too small. If it gets the least bit "harder to seat the ball", you are building fouling in the bore - our bores remain consistent from the 1st shot to the last of the day and THAT might be the 20th, 30th, 60th, or the 100th shot. That all depends on the day and how long we shoot.

One fellow we shoot with on Sundays, usually starts shooting the trail at 8AM.  We normally arrive at 10AM and shoot until 1:30 or so, then all go for lunch at the Bonvoyage Restaurant.  So- this man, also known as 'Hatchet Jack', has been shooting for 2 hours on the trail before we even get there and since he's alone for that length of time, he's usually fired off close to or over 50 shots.  After we arrive, a normal day would see him firing off another 50 or 60 - like us, he never has to wipe his bore, whether he's shooting his .50 or .58 rifles, or one of his smoothbores.  They do not get harder to load as we've taught all the benefits of a good smooth muzzle crown and tight combinations.

Yes - he uses a short starter & his hand for seating the ball into the muzzle - we all do - no mallets, no hammers are used, just the ones the Lord gave us, our hands. HJ also only uses his rifle's or smoothie's ram rod for loading. This man keeps track and a recording of every shot his guns have fired.  He is VERY meticulous that way - details are VERY important to him.  Only his new .58 Hawken Full stock has fired less than 10,000 shots.  He's at 20,000 on some of his guns.  He shoots Sunday and Monday - every week - that's a lot and he's dedicated to this sport. Keeps him out of trouble -  .

A local guy here is kept busy at times, with sometimes lock or spring repairs as well as frizzen re-grinding and/or replacements - they don't last forever, at lest not for much over 10,000 shots each.

[Natureboy]

  I used to wipe between shots, because the patch material I was using, 7oz denim, was too thin.  I noticed that the fired patches had burn holes in them, so I went to a thicker denim.  Now I don't wipe between shots, because I followed Daryl's advice about finding the right size ball and patch material.  It's no harder to ram the ball without the wipe than with it. And like the knowledgeable one says, lubed patches must be wet, wet, wet, either with spit or the lube of your choice. I'm sold on the process, and now I can fire more frequently, especially on woods walks.

[Mike Brooks]

Your brand of powder could effect fouling also. Some burns much dirtier than others.

[Dewey]

Also the humidity - I see a big difference between what I got in the Black Hills of South Dakota with very low humidity and what I get now in Iowa !!!   

[Joe S.]

I sometimes scratch my head when reading some of these threads.You have folks like Daryl and his brother who between them and their buddies probably threw more lead down fieldthan most here yet some dont listen.When I first started shooting muzzleloaders I too was dissapointed about only getting maybe half dozen shots or so before having to give the barrel a cleaning,ect to keep going.Back in the day it even turned some of us off from really getting into the sport.Things changed when you finally meet folks who put the time in and studied the craft and put the many hours into the sport and learned what works and what does not.Dont take this the wrong way but you have a couple folks here that know their s@#t, maybe you should give whats been working for them a try.

[StevenV]

My daughter and I have been shooting competitively for many years (her 7 years , myself 20yrs plus). She shoots predominately bench I shoot off-hand. We have always wiped between shots and will continue. If you want to do the same down range you need to do the same when you load, to even begin to shoot one hole groups. We wipe with moist cotton patch, black solve is what we use (1oz. to 7oz. water). The jag is flat bottom, this keeps from pushing the fouling down the barrel with every pass up and  down the barrel. Jag's with a coned tip push fouling down the barrel. Flat bottom jags take fouling out. Not only does wiping in between every shot keep the barrel consistent it also keeps possible hot embers from contacting a fresh measure of powder for your next shoot. I write this only to add my two cents as to how we approach shooting and loading muzzle loaders. I do have one question, can someone explain to me their dislike of wiping between shots. The down side it adds about 30 to 45 seconds to loading between shots but the up side it greatly increases consistency/ accuracy and at the same time adding some safety.     Thanks in advance         Steve