Author Topic: What happens when you don't swab between shots?  (Read 62732 times)

Offline Dphariss

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2016, 07:30:33 PM »
It seems that if one did not swab the bore between shots, that the process of pushing a PRB down the bore would cause a bit of a layer of fouling and soot to form between the powder and PRB by the time loading is complete.  I say this based on the amount of black fouling stuck to a patch after swabbing (and the assumption that even more of the fouling was pushed and left at the bottom of the barrel).

Just curious what effect this might have on powder.

Also, I'm thinking of designs for an improved jag that would expand and tighten inside the bore only when it's all the way at the bottom of the barrel.   This would enable one to pull all the fouling out of the barrel, instead of pushing most of it to the bottom of the barrel.

Wiping? It depends.....
If using an accuracy load. A load with a fairly dry patch like teflon coated material or patches soaked in water soluble  oil then dried wiping is required. These and other relatively high friction "dry" lubes require wiping. I use a "heavily damp", fairly large patch, not dripping, on a loose jag. Both sides used then a dry patch both sides. in regards to the expanding jag... The loose jag will let the patch ride over most of the fouling on the way down then  bunch up and pull the fouling out when the direction is reversed.  If you compete in a string measure rest match and don't wipe then you will likely not be all that competitive.

A lube like Neatfoots oil or tallow or a water based "lube" can be shot without wiping especially if the shooter blows through the barrel between shots (this can be climate dependent) but will still need to be wiped now and then in dry climates4g . Water based patch lubes can work very well since I consider these to be high friction. However, I quit using spit, for example, some (too many) years ago when I found a ring in a 58 caliber barrel where the ball sat in the bore. I have a 36 cal that I shot when I was a kid and it shows no ring. So (?) Anyway I don't use water based lubes and where I live I "blow" if I don't wipe.  But these slick lubes usually will not give the necessary precision for over the chunk or other string measure matches. Paper matches shot on scoring ring targets are more forgiving. Hit and miss matches on steel targets even more forgiving and generally require less accuracy.
This is why I use one load for accuracy and another for hunting IF shooting matches that allow time for wiping. If shooting steel or other novelty targets I use a hunting load.
Cautionary note. While few FL shooters use the product  a letter Hodgdon wrote to "Rifle" magazine some years ago explained that if ANYTHING liquid was used to wet the fouling from Pyrodex that ALL the fouling had to be removed immediately.  This stemmed from a subscriber wetting a rifle bore (in this case a modern brass suppository arm) with a very common smokeless bore cleaner overnight and the barrel being so damaged that it required replacement. It turns out that the product has alcohol in it and alcohol always has a greater or lesser amount of water in it.
Dan
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Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2016, 08:45:33 PM »
Interesting post, Dan, and an exceptionally good note about Pyrodex.  The guys should read that several times until all the "nuances" and innuendos are understood.
Daryl

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Offline bones92

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2016, 12:22:11 PM »
I have been using the Lehigh Valley Lube that I ordered from TOTW, which I understand is considered a good product for both patch lube and cleaning.  I suspect that I have just been using too little.  A barely-damp patch seems to make loading hard. 

If I read you all correctly, I want a wet, but not dripping wet, patch.  I think I will start soaking them in a Ziploc bag so that they evenly absorb the lube.

I'm also tempted to try Ballistol as a patch lube.

If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2016, 07:00:38 PM »
I like a liquid patch lubricant for trail and target shooting.  And I like pre-cut round or square patches.  I put my patches that I will use during any given session into a tin with a hinged lid, and pour the liquid into the box.  After all of the patches have absorbed as much of the fluid as they will, I gently squeeze the whole sloppy mess and run the EXTRA back into the lube vessel.  I like my patches to be soaked - not just damp - but without the liquid running out of the tin.
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Offline L. Akers

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2016, 06:54:39 AM »

A lube like Neatfoots oil or tallow or a water based "lube" can be shot without wiping especially if the shooter blows through the barrel between shots

Not sayin this is a good or bad practice, but if you're gonna shoot at Friendship blowing through the barrel is a major no-no.

Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2016, 09:46:46 PM »
You can easily use a blow-tube made of plastic (or bend metal) tubing, if you need to blow down the barrel (just as many of the BP Ctg. shooters do. Thus, your head never need be over the muzzle.
Daryl

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2016, 12:09:50 AM »
You can easily use a blow-tube made of plastic (or bend metal) tubing, if you need to blow down the barrel (just as many of the BP Ctg. shooters do. Thus, your head never need be over the muzzle.
Or, you could just do as I did and quit shooting at Friendship!
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2016, 04:43:54 PM »
You can easily use a blow-tube made of plastic (or bend metal) tubing, if you need to blow down the barrel (just as many of the BP Ctg. shooters do. Thus, your head never need be over the muzzle.
Or, you could just do as I did and quit shooting at Friendship!

BP cartridge shooters use a blow tube thru the BREECH. That would be a real trick
with a muzzle loader. Blow ACROSS the muzzle and that creates a vacuum to draw
smoke out of the barrel. Simple solution to a non problem.

Bob Roller

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2016, 08:35:52 PM »
Blowing across the muzzle would have no effect that was usefull. You blow down the barrel to soften the fouling. The old timers did this. In fact it was common practice untill the past decade or so when people got too stupid to not blow down the barrel of a loaded gun....... ::)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2016, 08:49:32 PM »
  Mike, I still blow down the barrel after each shot. Political correctness and other nonsense says I shouldn't, but I'm well aware of when I discharge my firelocks and doubt that my empty firearm will discharge twice without reloading.
                                          Dan

Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2016, 07:06:23 PM »
You can easily use a blow-tube made of plastic (or bend metal) tubing, if you need to blow down the barrel (just as many of the BP Ctg. shooters do. Thus, your head never need be over the muzzle.
Or, you could just do as I did and quit shooting at Friendship!

There is ALWAYS that Mike - or - you could use a load combination (ball/patch/lube) that does not require blowing down the barrel - in ANY weather, hot, cold, wet or dry with the humidity in the single digits, 7 to 9 - as we do.
Daryl

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Offline Leatherbark

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2016, 02:49:17 PM »
I wipe during a match.  But I wipe as I load the ball with my range rod.  I don't need to wipe, but once again its a match.  I have to shove the ball down anyway so why not do two things at once.  I don't do this on trailwalks with the regular wooden rod.  I've seen more misfires with people wiping and shoving gob down into the firing chamber and then loading the powder on top if the gob.  After short starting the ball I place a patch over the muzzle and shove cleaning patch and the patched ball down on the charge whether I'm using a flint or percussion.  The result is no misfires ever from fouling shoved in the chamber.  I can safely say that my flintlocks are fire more reliable than the percussion guns at our matches.

Bob

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2016, 04:23:34 PM »
Bob,

You didn't mention if you are using a wet patch or not or if you are using a tight fitting patch and ball combination.  But if you are doing both of those things, as many of us do, it seems that the tight fitting patched ball would do the wiping and little would be gained from putting a cleaning patch (wet or dry) in the barrel on top of the shorted started ball.  I'm not knocking your method, just trying to understand what advantage could be gained by doing that.

Also, if that cleaning patch loaded on top of the ball is a dry patch, have you ever found one of them smoldering on the ground?  Again, Bob, not knocking you in any way, just curious.  Thanks.

Mole Eyes
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Vomitus

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2016, 08:46:12 PM »
  About 30 years ago, I started observing what the guys in the winners circle were using and doing. Most didn't wipe, some did.
   My bore is always clean. The new load cleans the barrel from the spent one. Residue and a wet patch won't affect your powder's integrity. Loading the ball wrings out the patch, squeezing the lube into the bore above the balls center line as it's pushed on to the charge.
  So when you don't swab between shots, you shoot more, dats it!  ;D
 

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2016, 12:16:32 AM »
 If you swab after every shot, you will be almost guaranteed to run out of time before you get your lifetime of shooting done. Of course you will be five,or six years, ahead on your swabbing,if that is any consolation.
 One of the founding members of the Konocti Rod and Gun Club, and one of the few old timers that shot muzzleloaders swabbed after every shot at our club matches. Twenty years later we had become good friends, and he invited me to come out to his ranch,and shoot on his private range. We shot for a while,and  I finally asked him why he didn't swab after every shot anymore. He laughed, and said that he quit doing that when it stopped agrivating me,and making me shoot poorly. Shooting is a mental game after all.

  Hungry Horse

Offline bgf

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2016, 07:35:48 PM »
For offhand shooting, I use a wet patch on the round ball and don't wipe unless a relay gets delayed.  For shooting chunk, I wipe between shots and use a damp patch on the ball.  The difference is subtle and doesn't show up obviously until 5 shots into the match, but it is there.  If the ball starts sticking on the way down, noticeably different from the start, you are not wiping enough for the patch/lube combination... In my opinion.  I shot several chunk matches where shot 6 would go wild and then downhill after that.  After a couple matches I tried wiping more before shot 6, and relative accuracy was restored.  I then doubled my wiping habit and got better consistency shots 1-10, and I can replicate the result pretty much any time by varying the wiping.  Of course, each barrel is unique, but the new Rice .50 acts just like the older GM .40.  I need all the help I can get shooting chunk!

Offline WadePatton

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2016, 09:11:54 PM »
For offhand shooting, I use a wet patch on the round ball and don't wipe unless a relay gets delayed.  For shooting chunk,...  I need all the help I can get shooting chunk!

After attending my first chunk event this last weekend (York), I see exactly why I shall design my procedure for a wipe (with tow of course).  The great long delay possible between firing and re-loading is what concerns me-especially in dry air.  This is why I stood around taking notes instead of entering the event and load dryballs and shooting cross-targets.   ;)

But so long as I can reload after firing without substantial delay, I'll remain wipeless.
Hold to the Wind

Offline bgf

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2016, 10:46:11 PM »
For offhand shooting, I use a wet patch on the round ball and don't wipe unless a relay gets delayed.  For shooting chunk,...  I need all the help I can get shooting chunk!

After attending my first chunk event this last weekend (York), I see exactly why I shall design my procedure for a wipe (with tow of course).  The great long delay possible between firing and re-loading is what concerns me-especially in dry air.  This is why I stood around taking notes instead of entering the event and load dryballs and shooting cross-targets.   ;)

But so long as I can reload after firing without substantial delay, I'll remain wipeless.

Wade,
That's part of it.  I don't wipe until the beginning of the relay, then load and shoot.  The other components is that I get better group with the patch less wet, or at least it is easier to get consistently damp patches rather than consistently wet patches, at least for me... And so I have to wipe bore.   It's only a matter of 1/2" or so at sixty yards, but it adds up!

Did you shoot the York or watch?  I never do well there due to little/no practice over winter and having too much fun just being there, but I wouldn't miss it!

Offline Leatherbark

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2016, 11:22:06 PM »


Hello Moleyes. Regarding my swabbing while loading.  I do remove the cleaning patch I just shove the ball down with a patched jag and withdraw.

I use a wet patch (Le-High)  Not soaking wet just damp.  I have a jag on the end of my steel ramrod.  After short starting the damp ball/patch combo and getting it down in the barrel about 4 inches I seat the ball with a cleaning patch on my steel ramrod.  After seating it I might slide it up and down and withdraw the jag with the cleaning patch.  Just for consistency in the bore condition.  When doing woods walks or shooting from the bag I seat with the wood rod without the cleaning patch.  I prefer not to swab and don't really know if I need to or not I just like doing it when I seat the ball to make things simpler.  Plus in my drum percussion guns I don't ever have a misfire period caused by shoving any gunk up near the nipple.

Bob
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 11:24:11 PM by Leatherbark »

Offline WadePatton

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2016, 07:16:00 AM »
For offhand shooting, I use a wet patch on the round ball and don't wipe unless a relay gets delayed.  For shooting chunk,...  I need all the help I can get shooting chunk!

After attending my first chunk event this last weekend (York), I see exactly why I shall design my procedure for a wipe (with tow of course).  The great long delay possible between firing and re-loading is what concerns me-especially in dry air.  This is why I stood around taking notes instead of entering the event and load dryballs and shooting cross-targets.   ;)

But so long as I can reload after firing without substantial delay, I'll remain wipeless.

Wade,
That's part of it.  I don't wipe until the beginning of the relay, then load and shoot.  The other components is that I get better group with the patch less wet, or at least it is easier to get consistently damp patches rather than consistently wet patches, at least for me... And so I have to wipe bore.   It's only a matter of 1/2" or so at sixty yards, but it adds up!

Did you shoot the York or watch?  I never do well there due to little/no practice over winter and having too much fun just being there, but I wouldn't miss it!

Observation mode.  Talked to a few folks too.  ;)
Hold to the Wind

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #70 on: May 20, 2016, 09:53:01 PM »
Won't a patch that is "dripping wet" impact the powder charge?
 

That's what I'm wondering,  too.

Hmmm, unless the lube is drawn from the patch as it goes down the barrel, so that the bore is coated and the patch is not as wet when fully seated, perhaps.



   You hit it on the head, Bones. Very little touches the charge and I don't think it compromises it enough to notice. Having a soaked patch never hurt the ball on exit that I've noticed either. At the end of shooting all day, your barrel should clean up like you only took a shot or two. JMHO tho.

Offline hanshi

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #71 on: May 20, 2016, 10:51:33 PM »
Blowing across the muzzle would have no effect that was usefull. You blow down the barrel to soften the fouling. The old timers did this. In fact it was common practice untill the past decade or so when people got too stupid to not blow down the barrel of a loaded gun....... ::)



MY impression as well.
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2016, 04:29:50 PM »
If you want the very basic view of dealing with bore fouling in a bp fueled ml gun you might want to look at the following information.

Go to:
laflinandrand.com
The Mad Monk On black Powder

Imported Black Powders
Swiss (pdf file) You can download the file.
Page 33, Bore Fouling Properties

It explains why the late 19th century "moist burning" (Nassbrand) powders were highly desired.

Mad Monk

Offline Dewey

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2016, 06:44:41 PM »
I don't personally care if someone blows down the barrel of not (my range officers do, however!) -
I just have trouble believing there is enough moisture in one breath to have much of an effect.   ???

But whatever trips your trigger !!!   ::)

Offline Daryl

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Re: What happens when you don't swab between shots?
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2016, 07:38:02 PM »
If you swab after every shot, you will be almost guaranteed to run out of time before you get your lifetime of shooting done. Of course you will be five,or six years, ahead on your swabbing,if that is any consolation.
  Hungry Horse

Well put Hungry Horse - there is always the benefit of "being ahead" on swabbing! ;)

Dewey - if you use a moist, sufficiently thick patch, there is no need to blow down the barrel - none at all in ANY weather.
Daryl

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