What happens when you don't swab between shots?

[Mike Brooks]

If you swab after every shot, you will be almost guaranteed to run out of time before you get your lifetime of shooting done. Of course you will be five,or six years, ahead on your swabbing,if that is any consolation.
  Hungry Horse

Well put Hungry Horse - there is always the benefit of "being ahead" on swabbing!

Dewey - if you use a moist, sufficiently thick patch, there is no need to blow down the barrel - none at all in ANY weather.

There will be a difference of opinion on this of course.

[hanshi]

Possibly.  But mine is the only one worth considering.

[Dphariss]

It seems that if one did not swab the bore between shots, that the process of pushing a PRB down the bore would cause a bit of a layer of fouling and soot to form between the powder and PRB by the time loading is complete.  I say this based on the amount of black fouling stuck to a patch after swabbing (and the assumption that even more of the fouling was pushed and left at the bottom of the barrel).

Just curious what effect this might have on powder.

Also, I'm thinking of designs for an improved jag that would expand and tighten inside the bore only when it's all the way at the bottom of the barrel.   This would enable one to pull all the fouling out of the barrel, instead of pushing most of it to the bottom of the barrel.

If you shoot in a match where precision is important. Like an over the chunk type match then as a friend has said; "you don't have to wipe between shots but you have wipe if you want to win".
Generally speaking rifles shoot better with a "high friction" patch lube. IE, pretty dry. This requires wiping. Damp patch both sides and a dry patch both sides. Jag is loose enough to let the patch ride over the fouling on the down stroke than bunch up and pull the fouling out. 
Now if you are shooting gongs or shooting even scoring ring targets then shooting a 4"-5" 10 shot string is not needed to win unless someone shoots all Xs in the paper match.
The primary thing is bore CONDITION being the same from shot to shot.
Solvent patch lube can prevent fouling build up in the bore and it probably shoot pretty darned well, ala Daryl. I don't like this because over the years at the Nationals there have been accidents of varying severity when heavy fouling in the breech held a spark. Back in the 60s a pistol shooter had a rod, ball and patch shot through his wrist. This was the first I heard of but there have been others, one not so long ago on the trap range.
Note I believe that the fouling pushed down the bore by the patch and ball is mostly expelled since its setting on the powder charge. The fouling in the breech is from the powder fouling that never gets touched unless the bore is cleaned.
Obviously Daryl doe not have this issue. How the guns that have been involved with "incidents" were cleaned or not cleaned is not known to me. Improper cleaning could be an issue and long term build up could be a factor. Its not unusual to find significant fouling in the breech of used MLs.

Dan

[Dphariss]

If you swab after every shot, you will be almost guaranteed to run out of time before you get your lifetime of shooting done. Of course you will be five,or six years, ahead on your swabbing,if that is any consolation.
  Hungry Horse

Well put Hungry Horse - there is always the benefit of "being ahead" on swabbing!

Dewey - if you use a moist, sufficiently thick patch, there is no need to blow down the barrel - none at all in ANY weather.

If hunting in Montana or other prairie areas along the eastern front and the Humidity is in the very low double digits, under 20 percent and you don't want to reload with a water based patched lube you better blow down the bore or wipe it or a stuck ball could be the result. Where I live 50% or more means it may rain. Rained for quite some time before about 1PM some VERY heavy, but now as the clouds have thinned and its partly sunny, 8pm Mountain Time temp 55 the humidity has dropped to 45%. I have used about anything in the inventory that is not water based, Sperm Whale Oil, Neetsfoot, tallow, beeswax mixed with the Sperm Whale Oil (its pretty good actually). if the fouling is set up hard it takes some H2O to soften it. Blowing is the best option short of wiping. Once in the mountains or when the weather cools out on the plains its not so critical.

Dan

[Daryl]

I fully concur that when shooting in low humidity - the fouling from one shot will make sticky/crunchy loading if not loaded soon after that shot.  Also, that when shooting and loading in hot weather and low humidity, the drying time of the damp fouling after each shot, happens much more quickly than when the weather is cooler.  None of us have trouble loading and shooting the various trail walks at Rendezvous B.C. shoots at Hefley Creek - and the temps can be as hot as 100F - once at 122F, and the humidity in the single digits, 5 to 8.

Under those circumstances, as I have said right right here at ALR a number of times, if I was in a chunk shoot, or plank shoot where there were a number of minutes between shots - 5-15 or more, I-too would probably wipe the bore after my last shot, just to maintain consistency - as waiting too long to load gives the damp bore time to dry out and make the fouling crunchy.

I also maintain when the shooting is fairly rapid - there is complete consistency in my bore condition - it does not change from 5 shots to 100 shots - the grouping capability of my rifles shows this.

Mike - when I said that if you used a sufficiently thick patch, there is no need to blow down the barrel - none at all in ANY weather",  that was a statement of fact - it was not an opinion.

Of course, I took for granted one might know one needed some form of lubricant or fouling softener.

[CTShooter]

This is how it worked out for me.
Thompson Center 50 kit Hawken.
Played with various combinations of patch, lube, wiping, what ever I could think of, because it just didn't shoot the way I wanted. Didn't know about thick wet patches.
Thompson Center 54 Renegade, never fired.
Tried the thick wet patch from day one. Ragged one hole groups at 50 yards, always, as long as I feel like shooting.

Went back to my .50, spotless clean, thick wet patch, one ragged hole at 50 yards .

My goal was a simple process with good accuracy.

[Maven]

The thicker, wet patch trick works for me as well CTS.  Thanks to Daryl & Taylor for alerting us to this method!

[Scota4570]

Not swabbing between shots?  Well, where I shoot, you get a warning.  If you continue you get kicked out.  

That club requires that you swab between shoots, no exceptions.  They believe it is unsafe to load without swabbing.  I personally think that viewpoint is incorrect.  Unfortunately if I want to play in their sandbox I must play by their rules.  So, I use a nearly dry patch.  Just wet enough as to not stick in the bore, no more.  If you use it wet you will have misfires.  

I do find it humorous to see all this misfires.  Some use wet patches between shots.  Some of them can't get a rifle to fire reliably.  Lots of busted caps an flinching going on.  It is obviously because of their "safety" policy.    To my way of thinking, if the rifle is unreliable, that is unsafe.  I think they are trading one kind of hazard for another.

A few of them shoot really well.  I will grant them that.   It is interesting to me that such a simple firearm and sport can be made so complicated.  

[Daryl]

  I agree, Scota4570 - when we go to a shoot or to the club's trail, we go to shoot.  After we finish shooting and maybe having lunch and a beer, THEN it's time to clean - we likes it simple.

I can somewhat understand the paranoia though - as some think smoke coming from the vent or muzzle after a shot means there is still something burning in the barrel - and - trouble is, that could with true with people who shoot really loose, light loads.
Why, one lad thought there was unburnt powder left inside the bore of a cannon after a shot and that's why the bore was WET scubbed after each shot - to damp down that left over powder so it wouldn't go off unexpectedly. Some times, these people get to make the rules for clubs.

[SgtErv]

This is the first I've heard of using a wetter patch and not wiping. I'm going to give it a try. Nothing breaks down rhythm like wiping the barrel...

Brand new to this forum and already picked up a handy tidbit. Nice!

[Standing Bear]

When just shooting in a match, plinking or whatever, My rhythm I includes a wipe. One pass in and out w a damp patch. Next wipe other side of the same patch.   I've used wet patch too and it does work. Wiping is just what I've done for 40+ years and it doesn't hurt.
TC

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening All,

"To be or Not to be; that is the question." Oh...., FUDGE! I got this forum mixed up with the Shakespeare Forum.

The question is "To Wipe or Not to Wipe; that is the question." Now Fellow Forum Members, do not let your imagination go too far astray.

This a debate that is never settled of finished. It is endless, but I will put in my .02 cents worth. I have been shooting the ML Rifle and researching the subject  since when most of the members on this forum were still wearing diapers or at least training pants.

The historical evidence is that under most circumstances the oldtimers wiped their barrel between shot. Somewhere in my files are two specific historic references to wiping the barrel. One was the recollections of an older gentleman recalling a day in his youth as a referee in a squirrel shooting contest. He stated that after every shot, every shooter "wiped" his barrel before reloading.

I do now recall another instance, a group of Rocky Mountain trappers encountered a group of "Hostiles" The brigade leader shouted out to the men. "Better pull your wiping sticks Boys! We might have to shoot"

There is of course, a great deal of difference between a peaceful shooting match and a life or death shooting situation or even a very quickly needed second follow-up shot in the hunting field.

The second reference came from a name most folks here will recognize, one David Crockett. He stated that during a beef or turkey shoot, every contestant carefully wiped their rifles before reloading for the next shot. In both instances, I doubt very much that the shooters were wiping the outside of the barrel or the stock.

I realize that I no longer have the experience of youth, and are stuck with my antique methods. These go so far back, that at that time, all of the shooter at a monthly event arrived, carrying a heavy duty wooden "wiping stick" in the bore of their rifle. One end of the "wiping stick" was notched (probably with a pocket knife) to form a jag.

These gentlemen wiped between every shot; no exceptions. Metal range rods were still two or three years away. Most of these men wiped with water with a small amount of soap, then a second patch to dry the bore. The favorite patch lube was Hubbers Shoe Grease. A few used a spit patch, sometimes flavored with Beech Nut.

Since the relays were 30 minutes in length, there was plenty of time to wipe the bore between shots and get off 5 shots for record and 2 or 3 extra practice shots.

My old Mentor, the late "Judge" H. E. Resley of Fort Stockton, Texas explained to me that there were three reasons to wipe the bore between shots.

1. To maintain consistent bore condition for best accuracy.

2. To ensure that no glowing embers were left in the barrel that would ignite a fresh powder charge.

3. To keep something called the "Crud Ring" from forming 1/2" to 1" in front the powder charge. The ball would seat against the "Crud Ring" leaving a large air space in front of the powder charge, thus creating a very possible bomb situation.

Gentle Forum Members, I will have to finish this tomorrow. The wife is becking me to finish a few household chores. I am sure you married men understand.

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

[hanshi]

FWIW, At the range, plinking, trail walks, etc, I use a liquid lube, Hoppes BP Lube, and never have to wipe.  In the bush in search of deer the rifle is always lubed with mink oil.  A "quick" second load is no trouble with m. o. but swabbing is usually warranted somewhere around the 3rd or 4th shot.  Often I'll carry a few Hoppes lubed patches so I don't need to swab.  I use a fairly thick(er) patch, .019"-.020" squeezing the caliper jaws as hard as I can.  And yes, I'm still looking to either a .005" larger ball, an even thicker patch or both.  Snug patches do stop fouling buildup.  Any time tree rats are on the menu a liquid lube, Hoppes, is used as lots of shots may be taken.  Other's preferences may differ.

[Daryl]

"What happens when you don't swab between shots? « 1 2 3 4 »"

The above sentence is the title of this thread.

Much has been written on this topic.

Answering the actual question, though, has not been done in it's entirety - close, though.

To answer this question is simple

: If you do not swab between shots, you will have the opportunity to fire more shots in any 'given' period of time.

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

Daryl has stated an absolute truism that cannot be disputed, and I totally agree with his assessment.

One can absolutely shoot more times in a given time frame if one does not wipe the bore between shots.
Hard, if not impossible, to argue with that.

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

[WadePatton]

Greetings All,

Daryl has stated an absolute truism that cannot be disputed, and I totally agree with his assessment.

One can absolutely shoot more times in a given time frame if one does not wipe the bore between shots.
Hard, if not impossible, to argue with that.

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

Yes he did.

Also, it appears that you've not come to the understanding yet that Daryl Sapergia and many of his shooting pals, both local to him and some located great distances from the Great White North have found that a "properly" tight loading combination with a thick, well-lubricated patch can eliminate any of the "reasons" for wiping.  At all.

That these fellows shoot trail matches without wiping. All day long. Ten shots or fifty two, if the combo is right each new loading wipes the previous shot and ZERO build-up or ring creation can happen.

But there is a tremendous resistance to the adoption of this truth by the black-powder shooting community.  That's okay, do it your way.  But it's not fair to newcomers, nor an accurate statement to claim that "wiping is necessary" at ANY interval of shots.  It's all a matter of HOW YOU DO IT.

If one chooses to load a "slip/slop" fit and/or with bedsheet thickness patching, then INDEED he will do a lot of wiping to keep operations going smoothly.  I would say that he's/she's losing accuracy and performance as well, but that's a slightly different discussion.

The only time I have to wipe (or will) is when I cannot reload immediately and the fouling becomes tough in dry air. This is why I'll wipe at the York or any time I have to wait some time before dropping another charge.

[bones92]

When I started this thread, my main concern was buildup of residue in the bottom of the barrel if you don't wipe.  Since then, I had an experience where I was wiping between shots, and after 7 or 8 shots, the vent hole began to foul.   I wiped the bore, cleaned a bit with a scraper (which brought out a good bit of crud) and decided to try loading without wiping between shots.

Not surprising to many of you, my vent-fouling issue seemed to go away.    However, if I let the rifle sit between relays, it was a bear to load the next round, as the fouling had set up in the barrel.

In many ways, it makes sense now.   If I was using a jag/patch combination a bit too tight, I would be pushing fouling down.  Shooting may have just compacted this fouling rather than blowing out with each shot.

By not swabbing, one can get the powder down into the breech area without fouling being accumulated near the vent.   Loading a PRB will certainly push a bit of fouling down with it, but perhaps this is a good thing... it may serve to form a bit of a layer between a wet/greased patch and the powder.

I believe I will try loading without swabbing, and use a better lubricated patch. I think a more persistent lube (i.e. something that will leave a longer-lasting coating on the bore) may be a bit better than LVL or spit, which can quickly dry on the surface of a hot bore.

There are so many factors that are at play here, and I understand that there is not just one way to do things.  But I have learned quite a bit, and I hope some of you have, as well.  I plan to read through this entire thread once in a while, as there is a wealth of "gouge" (useful info) to be gleaned.

[Mike Brooks]

Not surprising to many of you, my vent-fouling issue seemed to go away.    However, if I let the rifle sit between relays, it was a bear to load the next round, as the fouling had set up in the barrel.

Blow  about three huge breaths down the barrel and you'll be able to load with ease after a pause.

[bones92]

Blow  about three huge breaths down the barrel and you'll be able to load with ease after a pause.

Mike, I've wondered about that.  Recently, I have blown down the muzzle a few times, and was surprised at how thick a smoke came out the vent.  It would make sense that this heavy smoke would settle to the walls of the bore. 

But if at the end of a relay, it would probably be wise to swab the bore with a lubed patch, anyway.

[OldMtnMan]

I've been blowing down the bore since the 70's. My head is still intact.

For target work I use a Ballistol mixed kind of strong with water. For hunting, I use bear tallow.

[hanshi]

Well, I both blow down the bore AND use a, at least for me, snug ball/patch combo.  Lube does make a difference, again in my shooting, with liquid lubes allowing an afternoon of shots to be fired without the need for wiping the bore.  Burned black powder releases about 1/2 gases and 1/2 solid fouling.  This is why the smoke needs to be blown from the barrel; otherwise it forms fouling in the bore.  Grease lubes don't work as well for me as liquids.  I pre-clean my guns prior to returning home.  I usually start with a scraper and it is rare that there's anything to remove; The scraper basically comes out clean.  A loose prb fit simply won't allow this.

[OldMtnMan]

Liquid lubes freeze up on me for hunting in cold weather. That's why I use bear tallow for hunting.

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

I have no argument with anybody's method of loading: wiping the bore or not wiping the bore between shots, whatever. Nor have any intention of trying to change anybody's mind about their method, nor try win some kind of argument.

To each, his (or her) their own; different strokes for different folks.

Everybody has a procedure that works for them, and they are not about to change that. I have no problem with that. Live and let live.

Sorry fellows, I will not be a part of a debate or argue the merits what somebody does or does not do.

However, a question was asked , and I partially stated my answer. Here is the rest of my answer.

For over 60 years, and at least 30,000 - 35,000 rounds, I have used the the wiping between shots method. The only variable has  been experimenting with different solvents. For the most part, Black Solve has the primary wiping/cleaning agent since it was first put on the market.

After each shot, a 2" X 2" cotton flannel patch is moistened on each corner. Do not moisten the center; nothing to clean in the center of the bore.

The patch is run up and down the bore three times, then the patch is turned over and run up and down the bore three more times. If the day is humid, a second patch is used to completely dry the bore. Most of Texas is usually pretty dry, so the second patch is seldom needed. I do use Teflon coated ball patching material; even used it for hunting. It is always dry and consistent. Most of my shooting is with a favorite 50 caliber custom Hawken using a .500 ball with 0.018 Teflon coated patching

The rifle is then loaded. NEVER have had a misfire except the times I overlooked dropping in a powder charge. The fellows I shoot with all wipe between shots, They have any misfires, because of a wet patch.

And oh yeah, blowing down the bore is strictly prohibited at the ranges, I frequent. Definitely a no-no at the NMLRA range at Friendship, and that rule is enforced.

Other than a few times in the hunting field, I have never had a need to rush to load a quick second shot.

Since I stopped hunting close to 15 years ago, all of my shooting has been at the range, attending 2 - 3 local matches a month; sometimes just one. The relays are usually 30 minutes, so can leisurely take my time. Always have time for 2-3 shots on a practice target with 5 more for record. Even in 15 minute silhouette relays always have plenty of time to wipe the bore and get off 5 shots.

Shooting is also a very pleasant way for me to spend 1-3 days a week at the range (Did I mention that I am retired?). There is no need for me to rush my shooting by not wiping the bore between shots. The range time is relaxed, therapeutic, a time to try new ideas, test what the old timers (or new timers ) did/ are doing, and just enjoy being there to smell the roses.

The range is a private one Most of the time, it is just my wife and me. Incidentally, back in June, 2016, she won the Texas Muzzle Rifle Association Ladies State Championship, and that after only three years of shooting. She wipes the bore between shots; must be doing something right. I will eventually figure out what it is.

Well that is my method and reasons for wiping the rifle bore between shot and has been for 60 plus years. Do not intend to change. Have tried about all of the other methods posted here. Been there; done that. They are OK; no argument from me, but I still continue to wipe the bore between shots.

I would recommend that new shooters to the sport start by wiping the bore between shots. Once some experience has been gained, experiment with the other methods described in this thread. You are the one that has to be satisfied

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

 

[Mike Brooks]

Blow  about three huge breaths down the barrel and you'll be able to load with ease after a pause.

Mike, I've wondered about that.  Recently, I have blown down the muzzle a few times, and was surprised at how thick a smoke came out the vent.  It would make sense that this heavy smoke would settle to the walls of the bore. 

But if at the end of a relay, it would probably be wise to swab the bore with a lubed patch, anyway.

You blow down the barrel to keep the fouling soft, the moisture in your breath does this. Has nothing to do with the smoke or extinguishing embers.
  Up untill the mid 90's everybody I knew blew down the barrel, even at Friendship. Then the NMLRA had some anti gunner come through Friendship and see people blowing down the barrel and had a fit. The NMLRA got all scared and lawyered up and outlawed blowing down the barrel. So, I quit going there as well as anywhere else that dictates how you load and shoot your rifle. Life is too short to deal with BS. So, I pretty much just shoot muzzleloaders at home for my own enjoyment. I don't see well enough to compete anymore anyway.
 BP cartridge shooters use a blow tube from the breech to soften fouling as well, same principle.
  As Hanshi says a tight ball/patch combo works as well, as well as plenty off lube. Anyone who wants to swab the bore every shot is more than welcome in my book, I have just always tried to figure out a way around it, I'd rather shoot than clean my gun all day.
 The two guns I'm shooting now are fouling about 8" down the muzzle for a short section, seems lube starvation is the problem . I had bought some pre-lubed patches and I don't believe they're carry enough lube. I just got some more patches and I'll be lubing by hand with wonder lube or something similar.

[OldMtnMan]

I've been retired for 19 years. I have plenty of time to shoot and except for the middle of winter I shoot every day. I not only blow down the barrel, but use a sort of wet patch, and I swab every shot. I think I have all the bases covered. I like a clean bore when I shoot. I'm never in a rush.

As I said already I use bear tallow for hunting. I use it on a squeaky clean bore and i've never needed a fast 2nd shot, so I have plenty of time to make it squeaky clean again before reloading.

Right or wrong that's my method.