What happens when you don't swab between shots?

[bones92]

Mike, I've noticed that recently, as well... like a rough patch of fouling about 8" down.  I am certain I'm not using enough lubrication.  I'm actually thinking about letting some of my patches absorb a bit of Bore Butter.  I have a tube or two laying around... might as well use it.   

Funny, but I figured blowing the smoke out of the barrel would, in fact, keep some fouling from sticking to the bore.  Any humidity from one's breath would be dissipated quickly in a warm bore... or so my simple mind would think.

Also, I didn't start this thread to change anyone's mind or challenge anyone's ways of doing things.  There are many suitable approaches.  I was just curious about what actually happens if one does or doesn't swab.  I've been able to figure out a bit of it on my own these past few trips to the range, but I still enjoy hearing what others think. 

[OldMtnMan]

I've always said if someone is always in a rush. They should just shoot a CF gun.

[sonny]

When using a thicker wet patch, don't you have to use a slightly small ball size to permit the thicker patch to seat?......sonny

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Sonny:  you can use patches that vary in thickness from .015" to .025", as an example, using the same ball, provided it is dead soft lead.

[Mike Brooks]

I've always said if someone is always in a rush. They should just shoot a CF gun.

I do...I'm not prejudiced .... as long as it shoots a projectile I'm for it.

[OldMtnMan]

I used to. I'm hung up on the dirty stuff now. 

[Natureboy]

  I used to wipe between shots, and when I did I noticed that the mark on my ramrod would work up from the muzzle, meaning that crud was building up on the breech plug from being pushed down the barrel.  I would run my scraper down and turn it around a few times, and when I tipped the gun upside down, grains of hard, dry black stuff would fall out on my hand.  Now that I have stopped wiping, except for those times at competitions when there is a long wait between relays, this never happens, and I don't have any trouble ramming successive loads.  I took Daryl's advice about not wiping, and I haven't had any trouble with fouling.  I mostly use spit, putting the patch in my mouth while I measure and pour the powder.  Now, if I could just stop my long gun from wobbling around when I shoot off hand, I'd be very, very happy.

[WadePatton]

  I used to wipe between shots, and when I did I noticed that the mark on my ramrod would work up from the muzzle, meaning that crud was building up on the breech plug from being pushed down the barrel.  I would run my scraper down and turn it around a few times, and when I tipped the gun upside down, grains of hard, dry black stuff would fall out on my hand.  Now that I have stopped wiping, except for those times at competitions when there is a long wait between relays, this never happens, and I don't have any trouble ramming successive loads.  I took Daryl's advice about not wiping, and I haven't had any trouble with fouling.  I mostly use spit, putting the patch in my mouth while I measure and pour the powder.  Now, if I could just stop my long gun from wobbling around when I shoot off hand, I'd be very, very happy.

Yeah.

I blow down the bore for shore.  I need to make a blow tube so I can "sneak" my breath (always quite handy) down the pipe when in competition (the ONLY time you'll find me at a range frequented by
Joe "RockThatSemiTriggerFAST" Sixpack).

Mmm, Goex residue. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Your ramrod will clime little by little, noticeable especially in a small bored rifle, even if you don't wipe between shots.  When you load successive shots, your patched ball cleans the bore down to the powder charge, but the space occupied by the powder never gets cleaned, and the fouling accumulates not only against the plug, but in the bore itself, creating a smaller and smaller area for the charge to rest.  Thus the charge must go somewhere and into the previously occupied space above the last charges is where it goes.
To get around this, you can either wipe occasionally, or you can load a pistol load of only 20 or so grains of powder, and a sloppy wet patched ball, to clean further down the bore.

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening OldMtnMan,

Have a question for you about using bear grease for a patch lube. It would seem that bear grease was the favorite lube with the old timers. Ned Robert wrote that Sperm Oil was also preferred when one could get it.

Back in my first 10-15 years of ML shooting, I tried everything that anybody wrote about. Once had a quart jar of bear grease (35-40 years back). Used it; had no problem. Used about 1/3 to 1/4 of it, then gave to the guys I shot with at that time. Nobody had any complaint; it worked well.

Brownell's had sperm oil at one time, very expensive through. Used that for a while; gave the rest to a friend. He liked it. Both of us did not think that bear grease or sperm oil had any thing special over the other. Used a number of other natural greases, coon, wild hog, unsalted bacon grease, etc. All worked well. None seem to have been better than the others.

Always came back to Hubbers Shoe Grease. It was not expensive and always easy to find. Used that until Hoppes No. 9 Plus came out, then used that for several years until I started using Teflon coated cotton patching. Have been using that for the past 20 years or more. Will probably continue to that the rest of my shooting life. Have experimented with Young Country Lube and the old Ox-Yoke lube.

All of these gave good or better results.

So OldMtnMan, what makes bear grease special and sets it apart from the other lubes? Have you found something special about it that escapes me? Or is simply the mystic and lore of using what the old timers
used?

This is a serious question. I have no intent to start a debate. but am curious. Never too old to learn something. It is obvious that my shooting and loading is a more formal type of range shooting than most of the members on this thread. I live in a different camp, but we all shoot the muzzle loading rifle.

 And just for the record, I have never used anything but real black powder in my 60 plus years of shooting the ML rifle.

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

[little joe]

My thoughts are do whatever works well in your weapon  keeping an open mind  and don,t BS your self about the results.

[Bob Roller]

Good Evening OldMtnMan,

Have a question for you about using bear grease for a patch lube. It would seem that bear grease was the favorite lube with the old timers. Ned Robert wrote that Sperm Oil was also preferred when one could get it.

Back in my first 10-15 years of ML shooting, I tried everything that anybody wrote about. Once had a quart jar of bear grease (35-40 years back). Used it; had no problem. Used about 1/3 to 1/4 of it, then gave to the guys I shot with at that time. Nobody had any complaint; it worked well.

Brownell's had sperm oil at one time, very expensive through. Used that for a while; gave the rest to a friend. He liked it. Both of us did not think that bear grease or sperm oil had any thing special over the other. Used a number of other natural greases, coon, wild hog, unsalted bacon grease, etc. All worked well. None seem to have been better than the others.

Always came back to Hubbers Shoe Grease. It was not expensive and always easy to find. Used that until Hoppes No. 9 Plus came out, then used that for several years until I started using Teflon coated cotton patching. Have been using that for the past 20 years or more. Will probably continue to that the rest of my shooting life. Have experimented with Young Country Lube and the old Ox-Yoke lube.

All of these gave good or better results.

So OldMtnMan, what makes bear grease special and sets it apart from the other lubes? Have you found something special about it that escapes me? Or is simply the mystic and lore of using what the old timers
used?

This is a serious question. I have no intent to start a debate. but am curious. Never too old to learn something. It is obvious that my shooting and loading is a more formal type of range shooting than most of the members on this thread. I live in a different camp, but we all shoot the muzzle loading rifle.

 And just for the record, I have never used anything but real black powder in my 60 plus years of shooting the ML rifle.

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

[Bob Roller]

One thing wrong here. I did NOT post any thing and this is my first post of the day.
I have both bear grease (over the objections of the bear) and sperm oil in an antique
can.Also half of a bottle of sperm oil I bought from Wes Kindig about 50 years ago so
I am assuming it is a stable lube.
I have done little PRB shooting in the last few years so can't comment on how these
ancient lubes will work with such loads. I also have read the writings of Ned Roberts
and Walter Cline and have high regard for the research the did.Cline refurbished worn
out relics and got acceptable results and Roberts was in the Industrial Northeast and
had better quality rifles to test and wrote about them.
When I shot PRB matches in the late 1950's and early 60's I used a light 58 caliber
hunting rifle with a Bill Large barrel and a lock and single set trigger of my own make.
I used a .575 ball in a .576 bore with a GI cleaning patch soaked in Black Solve which
was a concentrate that made a quart jar full. It looked like anti freeze and was claimed to
have silicon as an ingredient. It WORKED and worked well in that barrel which was the
first octagon barrel Bill made after he got his big shop going. He gave it to me and said he
didn't know if it was any good or not.
I have no good advice for any loads and used what I had on hand and I think we all do
that to a certain extent.

Bob Roller

[OldMtnMan]

Good Evening OldMtnMan,

Have a question for you about using bear grease for a patch lube. It would seem that bear grease was the favorite lube with the old timers. Ned Robert wrote that Sperm Oil was also preferred when one could get it.

Back in my first 10-15 years of ML shooting, I tried everything that anybody wrote about. Once had a quart jar of bear grease (35-40 years back). Used it; had no problem. Used about 1/3 to 1/4 of it, then gave to the guys I shot with at that time. Nobody had any complaint; it worked well.

Brownell's had sperm oil at one time, very expensive through. Used that for a while; gave the rest to a friend. He liked it. Both of us did not think that bear grease or sperm oil had any thing special over the other. Used a number of other natural greases, coon, wild hog, unsalted bacon grease, etc. All worked well. None seem to have been better than the others.

Always came back to Hubbers Shoe Grease. It was not expensive and always easy to find. Used that until Hoppes No. 9 Plus came out, then used that for several years until I started using Teflon coated cotton patching. Have been using that for the past 20 years or more. Will probably continue to that the rest of my shooting life. Have experimented with Young Country Lube and the old Ox-Yoke lube.

All of these gave good or better results.

So OldMtnMan, what makes bear grease special and sets it apart from the other lubes? Have you found something special about it that escapes me? Or is simply the mystic and lore of using what the old timers
used?

This is a serious question. I have no intent to start a debate. but am curious. Never too old to learn something. It is obvious that my shooting and loading is a more formal type of range shooting than most of the members on this thread. I live in a different camp, but we all shoot the muzzle loading rifle.

 And just for the record, I have never used anything but real black powder in my 60 plus years of shooting the ML rifle.

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

Hi John,

 It's really simple in my case John. I live in Colorado at 8000ft and hunt up to 12,000ft. It can get cold here during hunting seasons. I wanted a patch lube that wouldn't harden up when it's cold. Lot's of lubes will accomplish that. So, that's one reason.
  2nd reason is as you guessed it's PC to the fur trade era that I like to follow. That's just a personal reason.

 The 3rd reason may be a little strange to some. I'm a bear hunter. I hunt mostly for elk and bear, but bear hunting is much more of a challenge and it's much more exciting. Baiting is not legal here and I wouldn't do it anyway. So, my style is to sneak in on game (still hunting) close. Getting close face to face with bears can keep you alert. I love it though. I'll be hunting for bear long after I retire from elk hunting. Which will be soon.
 
So, using bear grease somehow seems right. I also eat bear jerky during the hunt. I wou;ld also wear clothing made from bear hide, but my best friend is a Lakota Indian, and I give him the bear hides. He makes drums from them.

 Somehow using bear products brings me more in tune with the bears. I told you it will seem strange. The good part is bear grease happens to be a great patch lube, so i'm not sacrificing anything.

 Hope that helps explain.

[axelp]

I use bear grease when hunting-- works fine. I also use spit at the range and it works fine too, and its cheap.

K

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Morning OldMtnMan,

Many thanks for the reply to my question. I did you used the bear grease because it was more fitting to the era you follow, and that is completely understandable.

I personally will not use that PC word(s). The way it is today by certain groups it is just a substitute for Censorship. I about as non PC as you get, as most likely many of the members of this forum are.

And enough of that. And, everybody, please let us not turn this thread into a PC discussion.

Now back to the real subject.

I greatly enjoyed your background information. It was very interesting but all too brief. I would like very much to hear more, but that subject is probably for another thread.

Fellow members, When I fired my first shot through a ML rifle in 1953, I was more interested in shooting than combining shooting with a particular historical era. My tutoring was more along the lines of Ned Roberts.

There was very few ML supplies available in the 1950's, so everybody I shot with was very concerned about wiping the bore between shots before reloading, so that is what I learned. Besides the commonly available Hubbers Shoe and Boot Grease, Crisco was the next commonly used patch lube.I was too young and too new to the game to have any original thoughts of my own, so just followed the lead of the men who were teaching me. These gentlemen tried everything from bear grease to spit; always looking for something better, but always wiped the bore between shots. I never questioned that.

To give an idea what WAS NOT available. Dixie Gun Works was new. Turner Kirkland was a very young man. The DWC's catalog was less than 40 pages, printed on a purple spirit master copier, folded, and stapled to form a 4-1/4 X 8-12 size catalog. The price was 50 cents. I ordered mine by taping five dimes to an index card inside an envelope and sending the order off the U.S. Mail.Received the catalog about 10 days later.

I completely understand the desire that many members here have to replicate the ways of a long ago time(s). As a historian and researcher, I have a deep appreciation for what our forefathers and (and mothers) did. My family has been in this country since 1620. I can only imagine their hardships.

So let continue to have this discussion, hopefully in a very civil manner. OldMtnMan's reply to my question was that type of reply.

I also strongly think that the shooting and reloading advice for "newbies to this fine sport should be simple and safe, and for that reason, I do recommend starting by wiping the bore between shots. When they have acquired a better understanding of shooting the ML rifle (things like the best powder/patch/ ball combination for their rifle proper cleaning after shooting)) then encourage them to simulate what the Old Timers did.

All too many new ML shooters quit because of a lack of understanding these problems. These are folks we cannot afford to lose.

Keep it simple for them.

With that, I doubt if there is much more I can contribute to this thread other than to say we all shoot the ML rifle, just live in different camps.

See you on another thread.

My respects to All.

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

[OldMtnMan]

John....................Let me further explain my comment. I too could care less what anybody else thinks of what I do. I don't go to a rendezvous that would be like that. I'd probably end up slugging someone. Not a good idea at my age.

No, I meant I like to be correct to my era for just myself. It's a lifestyle to certain extent. I want to experience what the mountain men did. I can't of course, but I do what I can do.

I know this is a longrifle forum, and what i'm doing doesn't fit in, but I have the same passion for my era that you guys do. I just came along later in history. There's something about living in the Rockies and thinking about the mountain men that appeals to me.

Anyway, I didn't mean using PC the way I did. I should have explained better.

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Afternoon OldMtnMan,

I understood exactly what you were telling me. Hope that I did not  offend you. You and I are pretty much in the same philosophical boat.

About that PC comment; I did completely understand what you were saying, and I was not offended in any way. I just have had it up to and way past with this pc bull droppings. That is the reason I do not use that word unless it has un as the first two letters.

No need for you to explain any further.

I am a bit busy right now (my wife wants to go to local HEB Market Place), but when I get back, do to relate an interesting true story about bear grease. This will NOT be one my infamous and notorious Texas Tall Tales.

Jim Bridger and I would have gotten along great telling Tale Tell stories around a camp fire.

My respects to All,

John L. Hinnant
"God and Texas"

[OldMtnMan]

Ok John. I'm always up for a good tall tale. Even if it's true. 

I feel i'd get along with Jim too.

[Arcturus]

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, gents, but "PC" around here means PERIOD correct, not "politically" correct.  If that was already understood by everyone, I apologize...just want to be sure we all understand the abbreviations.

I am a shooter and hunter, but I don't and have never competed with muzzleloaders.  I have a lifelong history of firing just about every kind of gun, civilian and military modern weapons to the old-time stuff we all love on this forum.  My experience with modern weapons over a lifetime of shooting and hunting eventually meant that flintlocks, due to my (also lifelong) love of early American history, became what I shoot the most today.  I find myself rarely shooting anything else these days.  Since the history of these old guns is so much a part of why I do it (I have ancestors that came to America in the 1600s, too), I'm only interested in shooting the guns the way they did it back then.

To each his own in this game, and I love to hear of everyone's techniques as there's more than one way to skin a cat, but personally bear grease, or mink oil are the way I do it all the time.  I've shot on the range with some modern lubes, but really, the reason I carry that flintlock in the woods is to do it like my ancestors.

So the idea of never wiping, or wiping every shot, just doesn't occur to me.  I don't think the frontiersmen or hunters in the 1700s wiped after every shot, nor do I believe they hammered super-tight balls down their barrels so they wouldn't have to wipe in a hundred shots.  I can fire accurate groups with animal fat for lube, shooting balls .010 to .020 smaller than bore, with a patch around .020... and shoot at least eight to ten shots before I wipe the bore.  With all of my rifles and smoothbores.  And they load easily and quickly without taking a sledge hammer to them.  I believe that that is closer to the way the flintlocks were shot in the 1700s, and it works for me, so I'm happy.

[Daryl]

John - for very cold weather, I found nothing better than marmot oil - or real Neetsfoot Oil. Both remained quite liquid at sub-freezing temps.

I also used, in my 14 bore hunting rifle, only the first shot was a patched ball - I had 5 paper ctgs. in my pocket - which gave same accuracy as a patched ball shot to the same point of impact. I could load and shoot a second shot in 8 seconds. I was practiced and able to perform this quite easily.  With the paper ctgs. I could fire up to 10 with equal accuracy -  the bore became a mite crunchy and I had to fire a cleaning load using a light 3 drams (82gr.) 2F charge and wet patched ball - then I could load up to another 10 ctgs. before needing another cleaning shot.

That was all with using a short starter, my normal load of .030" patch and .684" ball in the .69 (14 bore) rifle - using the rifle's wooden rod. I did not need a hammer, sledge or mallet to load this or any load in that rifle. I do not understand why people have to use mallets or hammers to load snug combinations.  I also use, when hunting & sometimes on trail walks, only the rifle's hickory rod for loading - which is original to the rifle which was made in 1986 - 30 years old, now - WOW!

It was only a 23 years old when this picture was taken with my late buddy Brad holding the rifle.

[Mike Brooks]

How hard do you have to squeeze a marmot to get oil out of it?

[OldMtnMan]

PC means period correct to me. Who mentioned politically correct?

I'll say again. I've never found a situation when a quick 2nd shot was needed. I've never run into hostile Indians, so that's one part of PC that isn't going to happen. I have lots of time to swab between shots.

I think everybody should use their method without critiquing how others do it.

[Mike Brooks]

I don't think anybody is critiquing anybody, just an exchange of information.

[Daryl]

YES - if you use the fat from inside the cavity only (marmot or bear), you will get more clear liquid oil and less lard/shortening.  Friend of mine up in Smithers used to simply put a handful of inner fat in a zip-lock bag, then store them in the freezer. When needed for water proofing his boots, he'd take out a bag of fat and run it onto his boots - worked better for him than any commercial prep.

I found that after handling the fat, I needed to wash my hands with dish soap - twice, to get all the fat off them.
The marmot oil I had was from the largest ones, the Hoary Marmots on Hudson's Bay Mountain. It made a very good patch lube, for my .58 Hawken.

I used very low heat to 'try' it out from the fat.