Author Topic: Round bottom grooves and conicals?  (Read 3281 times)

C. Cash

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Round bottom grooves and conicals?
« on: February 29, 2016, 05:51:37 AM »
Is a round bottom grooved barrel essentially a patched round ball gun only, or can one use conical/maxi bullet style projectiles?  It is a 1/48" twist T/C Renegade 54 caliber, with recut grooves by Bobby Hoyt.   If I remember correctly the bullets I have are about 6-10 thousandths smaller than the groove to groove diameter. When fired will they conform correctly in the bore at BP pressures?  I guess I could just shoot em, but I hate cleaning lead so thought I would ask if anyone has had any experience with the two.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 06:05:24 AM by C. Cash »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Round bottom grooves and conicals?
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2016, 09:06:32 PM »
Concial bullet grooves are usually .004" to .006" deep. How deep are your grooves?

I once had a VERY accurate 32" barrel made by Les Bauska- a .50, with .008" rifling and 38" twist.  I choked the barrel using a lead lapp, ie: .002" tighter for 1" at the muzzle than the rest of the barrel. That took a good 2 hours of lapping if I remember correctly.
I used a section of the barrel with threads cut 7/8" x 14 to fit my reloading press, so I could pre-engrave the bullets.  These shot amazingly well. I used both 370gr. TC Maxiballs and Lyman bullets from an antique adjustable mould at 400gr. with a hollow base, thick skirt. By amazing accuracy, I mean shooting with aperture sights, I was able to shoot 1" to 1 1/2", 5-shot groups at 100 yards at the Barnet range, off the bench. Seems to me, I used 80gr. 2F for the charge.

If your rifling is normal .016" deep, I'd say patched RB only. If it is .006" deep by all means. My bore was very smooth from the lapping and although all I used for lube was Crisco shortening, I had no leading to clean out. If it is .008 or deeper, mechanically fitted (pre-grooved) would be best, I'd expect.
It all hinges on rifling depth and bullet fitting at the muzzle, imho.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

C. Cash

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Re: Round bottom grooves and conicals?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 12:48:04 AM »
Great to hear Daryl and thank you for your indepth response.  I will get back on tonight with the measurements as I need to revisit those figures.  I will shoot mostly PRB''s but want to see what conicals will do as I would like to take a hog with the renegade.

C. Cash

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Re: Round bottom grooves and conicals?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 05:50:29 AM »
It looks like .562-5 in the grooves and .542 on the lands(rough measure but the best I can get).  The conicals I wanted to use are .552.  I'll have to see if I can dig the bullets back out to see how deep the lube grooves are.  These are not t/c maxi's and have the shallower grooves so probably no go.  If I can make it shoot patched round balls well I'll be very happy, but may still try for a conical load for deep penetration on the hogs.  Thank so much again for the help.  I never thought about the depth of the lube grooves in equation.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Round bottom grooves and conicals?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 09:18:04 PM »
It looks like .562-5 in the grooves and .542 on the lands(rough measure but the best I can get).  The conicals I wanted to use are .552.  I'll have to see if I can dig the bullets back out to see how deep the lube grooves are.  These are not t/c maxi's and have the shallower grooves so probably no go.  If I can make it shoot patched round balls well I'll be very happy, but may still try for a conical load for deep penetration on the hogs.  Thank so much again for the help.  I never thought about the depth of the lube grooves in equation.

As for the hogs, a .54 cal. ball will work wonders.  I would not even think of using a slug.  To use a slug being .005" larger than the bore, one would have to pre-engrave them to get them to load, I would think.

If I was 'sold' on trying slugs, I'd try the .54 calibre Lee R.E.A.L. bullet that has tapered sides. That one will load well - the whole question is will it be accurate enough and will it shoot cleanly enough to allow subsequent loads.  I would lube it (fill the grooves) with Lyman BP Gold or Steven Paul  Garby's SPG. Alternatively you could use 60% Beeswax/40% Vaseline - yes, I know "Vaseline" is Petroleum gelly - I don't care as it works amazingly well as a bullet lube with black powder as the propellant. It has shown to be just as good as both commercial lubes mentioned, in my BP rifles and also when used a lube cookie.

Your .54 should shoot perfectly well with round ball and a decent patch. For hunting animals I figured needed better penetration, a WW ball of .526" with thick patch would do the trick. Still well over 200gr. and with a charge in that 48" twist of up to 110gr. 2F - would shoot very well indeed, if the barrel is a good one - most are. A 10 ounce denim patch would be what I'd use with that hard ball.  Guys up here use that same thickness patch 10ounce denim)  with .530" and .535" balls in their .54's with pure lead. Lots of compression in the grooves, clean and accurate shooting.

Your .010" rifling will work well with patched round balls.  Hard to say what it will shoot like with bullets.  Keep them short- 48" IS a round ball twist, not a slug twist. When you shoot slugs that are too long for the rifling twist- they may shoot accurately enough, but being on the ragged edge of stability, will likely tumble on impact and not travel in a straight line inside the animal,  As Lt. James Forsyth wrote, "shirk the bones and course through the soft parts of the body, making neat wounds, rather than like a round ball smashing the bones asunder and creating most grievous wounds".  He was very much against "soft concials" for dangerous game.  "Conicals, of necessity, have to be made soft to take the rifling, whereas the spherical ball can be hardened and thus out penetrate the conical".

It was not until the advent of modern breech loading (ctg.) guns where hardened conical bullets would out-perform the spherical ball, within hunting ranges.

He did note, that conicals were very much better than spherical balls for wounding game that was always collected with the use of dogs - to run them down and bring them to bay.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 03:08:53 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline sqrldog

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Re: Round bottom grooves and conicals?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2016, 09:45:21 PM »
C. Cash
I second Daryl's opinion that a .54 round ball will kill the biggest hog you are likely to encounter. I have a .54 cal. rifle that has killed between 40 and 50 feral hogs. They weighed from 50 to 400 lbs. none of them were any problem for the patched roundball made from pure lead. It's all about shot placement. I used 90 grs. 3f powder. It is also my whitetail deer load and would be my elk load if we had elk to hunt. Tim

C. Cash

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Re: Round bottom grooves and conicals?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2016, 02:43:49 AM »
I think you all talked some sense into me on this.  I believe I will stay away from the conicals and as suggested, go with a good stout round ball load for the hogs.   That setup should be perfectly adequate for what's needed.  Thank you both for the great info.....I will look into getting that cotton Daryl.