Graver sharpening Part 2

[Bill Ebner]

  After my earlier question concerning sharpening techniques, I tried getting Lynton McKenzies video and had absolutely no success. SmartFlix is out of business, Brownells and Rio Grande don't carry them and there were none on Amazon or Ebay. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 Failing that, I will go with Lindsay. What template would you all recommend? Is it practical to purchase all the sharpening stones, or just the finer grades?

 Thanks,

 Bill

[Hungry Horse]

I think you're overthinking this process. Check out videos by Hershel House, Jack Brooks, or Wallace Gusler. These guys will show you how to engrave longrifles the way they were originally done. The engravers you referenced were capable of engraving bank note plates. Remember several of the more famous early gunsmiths were actually pretty poor engravers, even though they were superior gunsmiths. I think many modern longrifles are over engraved for the time period.

  Hungry Horse

[jerrywh]

"The engravers you referenced were capable of engraving bank note plates. Remember several of the more famous early gunsmiths were actually pretty poor engravers, even though they were superior gunsmiths. I think many modern longrifles are over engraved for the time period." Hungry Horse

 This will give you an excuse to be mediocre. After all you don't want to strive for perfection do you??

[Boompa]

   Jerry, To be completely truthful about it, right now I'd be happy to be a mediocre gun engraver, perfection is a looong way off for me.

[Mike Brooks]

After all you don't want to strive for perfection do you??

Not on American work. The perfection of you high end engraver types on American work always seems unconvincing and some how out of place and generally spoils the warm folksy aura  that original antique American work has.
 Always looks spot on on Euro work though.

[oldtravler61]

Maybe maybe not. My goal is to always do my best. Then try to get better. Quantity of doing anything. Doesn't nessceraly mean quality. It's up to each builder (artist) to set his own standards. Myself I will always strive to improve.

[crankshaft]

After all you don't want to strive for perfection do you??

Not on American work. The perfection of you high end engraver types on American work always seems unconvincing and some how out of place and generally spoils the warm folksy aura  that original antique American work has.
 Always looks spot on on Euro work though.

.
.

Ditto.

  Fine engraving does not "recreate" the American Longrifle.
 It looks  ..contemporary.
 If that is the goal.

[Thom]

I would just like engraving to be fun. It hasn't been so far.

[jerrywh]

 The better you get the more fun it is. Believe me.

[Robby]

It is hard for me to judge my own work, but I believe I have gotten better and yes, it is more fun. As much as I enjoy seeing your work, using the tips you have so freely have given, and appreciate your wisdom, I do believe that perfection, in this case would be to recreate something in the style and manner of those men that worked in the lights of the eighteenth century and make it believable. The better I get, the harder it is to do just that.
Robby

[Mike Brooks]

Believe me, when I typed what I did I knew it would be controversial. it's only my opinion, (my ego tells me I'm always right, or nearly so  ) and I hope it inspires deep thought about what we are creating these days. Just because you can perform outstanding carving and engraving doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, (although it generally pays extremely well), when recreating convincing American work. When you are creating euro/english  "high end work"it is entirely appropriate......put some deep thought to it. It's probably always appropriate when you're doing "contemporary" work  considering no basis in historical context.
When I examine original antique work it is completely different than many of today's high end artisans are putting out. Nothing wrong with that as long as you're well grounded in actual antique examples and know or can  tell the difference.
 Please feel free to discus.......

Believe me I have seen some stuff 18th century out of Philly and else where that knocks my socks off, A very few other places as well, but they are the exception rather than the norm. You may also contribute 10% of my opinion to Captain Morgan's Private Stock......

[frogwalking]

Jerry, I aspire to be a mediocre engraver.  That is, instead of rather pitiful, as I am now.

[Ed Wenger]

Bill, just my two cents, but seriously consider the Lindsay system.  You can certainly sharpen a graver by hand, but for me it was always a little challenging, and difficult to replicate angles when a tip broke.  The Lindsay templates take all the guess work out.  A huge part of engraving is having the graver sharpened correctly, and makes all the difference in the world.  You can do the vast amount of engraving with the universal template.  I found the 260, 600, 1200, and 2000 grit stones to be helpful.



             Ed

[Hungry Horse]

 I strive to make longrifles that are as good as the old masters. That, in my opinion means not engraving them like a Texas rodeo buckle. These guns were not in most cases intended to be works of art. But, were intended to be artful working guns. JMO.

  Hungry Horse

[Nordnecker]

Not to steal this thread, but- There was a guy at Dixon's last year who really looked like he was having fun demonstrating his engraving to the crowd. He was right outside the entrance to the store. People were walking in and out of the store and he was just engraving away without a care. He was explaining what he was doing and why. I wanted to get close and watch but I was pressed for time and there were already a dozen or more people surrounding him. Anybody know who he was?

[Ron Scott]

Regardless of how precise or not that you desire your work to be, being able to quickly and consistently sharpen your graver is an essential requirement. From a beginners standpoint, there is nothing easier of more accurate than the Lindsay sharpening fixture. My students are somewhat divided in their choice of the 116 degree fixture or the 96 degree fixture. Personally, I would suggest the 96 degree angle for you start up work.

You might call Lindsay and ask if there is an engraver near you that could demonstrate the sharpening system. The people who own Lindsay engraving systems  are extremely enthusiastic about the equipment and eager to share.

[smart dog]

Hi Bill,
The Lindsay templates are a good choice. Regardless of the level at which you want to engrave, you cannot even reach mediocre without properly sharpened gravers.  With the Lindsay system you typically start with square blanks. It is best to have a simple bench grinder to roughly shape or taper the square blank.  Then you can use a flat coarse diamond bench stone to shape the facets required for the desired tool.  Then a fine diamond stone to smooth it up, and then I use two ceramic stones (one finer than the other) to hone the polish and create the heel. After you shape the blank, you usually won't need the diamond stones and will use the ceramics for repeated sharpening.  If you have to reshape the tool, then the diamond stones are needed again. I also use a leather strop charged with simichrome polish to final polish my gravers. I recommend as a start that you get Lindsay's universal, detail, and one of the flat graver templates.  The detail template creates the classic 90 degree graver that Lynton's video produces.  It is great for shading and thin detail lines.  The universal graver produces a tool that cuts main lines very nicely, has a heel that does not drag when cutting scrolls, and is very strong.  The flat is useful for borders, background removal, and nick and dot borders.

Good luck,

dave

[jerrywh]

 I will endorse the Lyndsay system for what almost all of the guys on this website want to do. It is probably the fastest way to accurately achieve a professional grade graver geometry. Well worth the money.
 By the way Ron Scott teaches engraving at times and does a excellent job of it.

[Acer Saccharum]

No matter what level of engraving you strive for, you won't get to first base without learning how to sharpen the cutting tool properly.

Lindsay template system will function well for most engravers, without a huge investment in equipment.

[jerrywh]

 Question.  More than once I have been told that some engraving is to good for a American long rifle.  How bad does one have to be to qualify as a long rifle engraver??  
  Is John Shippers too good?

[WadePatton]

Question.  More than once I have been told that some engraving is to good for a American long rifle.  How bad does one have to be to qualify as a long rifle engraver??  
  Is John Shippers too good?

Pretty sure this depends upon your customer base.  Do they want best quality work, or best replication of originals work?  This is the question.

So VERY hard for a real artisan to "dial it down" but that's what real bench copying requires in some cases.

[Mike Brooks]

Question.  More than once I have been told that some engraving is to good for a American long rifle.  How bad does one have to be to qualify as a long rifle engraver??  
  Is John Shippers too good?

For historically correct American engraving for the most part, yes. That being said I consider Schippers to be an excellent engraver. i have had John do some Manton engraving for me that was excellent....although you can still tell John did it, he has a distinctive style, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Boompa]

 Some of the engraving I've seen on contemporary LRs is just incredible, complete artistry. My hat is off to those builders and their engraving talent. I have not had the opportunity to handle very many originals but the few that I've seen had modest engraving at best. From what I've seen, today's gun engravers are far better than those of the 18th-19th century. I understand what Mike is saying here.  Homer Dangler put it something like this, back in the day the emphasis was on the gun.  They built a gun with some artwork added.  Today the emphasis is on the art, building artwork that shoots.

[thimble rig]

You got that right boompa.I think the old the masters would be totally amazed at the work these guys do today.Some of those rifles I would be afraid to touch them.There so beautiful.

[oldtravler61]

If Acer an jerrywh recommend the Lindsey system. I need no more input.To me they are two of the very best. IMHO