Author Topic: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?  (Read 14226 times)

Offline Kermit

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« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 10:02:18 PM by Kermit »
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2016, 10:51:52 PM »
I still buy Nicholson flat bastard files as well as the #49 and #50 rasps.    Do have some Nicholson saw sharpening files and he is right, they don't last, but neither do my Grobet Habilis files when used on saws or other hard steel.   The edges wear off way too quickly.   Are there Grobet files made just for saw shapening?  I buy most of my file through MSC and have never seen a designation on files for use.  I just buy triangular files of various lengths.

  
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 10:53:30 PM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Kermit

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2016, 11:15:32 PM »
I know some folks seem to find old stock Nicholsons, but I have no idea how you'd know. I sharpen my handsaws using these. They do wear out after 8-10 saws, but the last Nicholson I bought didn't make it through one 26" saw.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1,320,43072,43089,69854
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2016, 11:52:49 PM »
My last Nicholson was Hecho in Mexico. Pure crapola.
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Offline Bill-52

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2016, 11:54:00 PM »
Just last week I found an old, made in USA, & still sharp three-sided Nicholson file in an antique shop. It was tagged for $1.50 - I got it for $1.00.  Made my day! Given my experience with new Nicholsons, this is the only way I'll buy them.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 06:12:38 PM by Bill-52 »

Offline wattlebuster

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2016, 01:07:01 AM »
I got lucky a while back an found some new old stock that had made in USA. I bought all four of them cause I new that the next ones they got in would be mexican. I try an check everything I buy an buy USA made even if it costs quite a bit more but now days its getting harder to do
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Online Bob Roller

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2016, 01:26:48 AM »
Just last week I found an old & still sharp three-sided Nicholson file in an antique shop. It was tagged for $1.50 - I got it for $1.00.  Made my day! Given my experience with new Nicholsons, this is the only way I'll buy them.

Dont't ya just love it. Got to a hardware store,buy a new Nicholson branded file and it's already worn out when removed for that blister pack. I suppose that DOES save the buyer the trouble of wearing it out himself.

Bob Roller

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 02:16:43 AM »
I know some folks seem to find old stock Nicholsons, but I have no idea how you'd know. I sharpen my handsaws using these. They do wear out after 8-10 saws, but the last Nicholson I bought didn't make it through one 26" saw.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1,320,43072,43089,69854

Thanks for the link.  I will try them when I wear out what I have. 

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 03:02:48 PM »
I got lucky a while back an found some new old stock that had made in USA. I bought all four of them cause I new that the next ones they got in would be mexican. I try an check everything I buy an buy USA made even if it costs quite a bit more but now days its getting harder to do

I get supplemental catalogs from KBC and Travers and notice it's an EVENT when something says,MADE IN THE USA.

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Boompa

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 03:31:29 PM »
  There aren't many choices locally, Nicholson being the most common.  Most are now made in Mexico, these are so-so in quality. I occasionally find good old files used in pawn shops, garage sales, etc.  Guess I'll have to start mail-ordering files too.

Offline flehto

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2016, 04:24:21 PM »
During my tool and diemaker apprenticeship {ended in 1960}, I amassed 100s of files and still have some made by  Nicholson  and they still are sharp and most of the files were made by Grobet and are still sharp. Bought a mill file from a hardware store and it wouldn't file brass right out of the pkg......Fred

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2016, 07:26:28 PM »
 Nicolson files are not what they use to be but they are better than Chinese stuff.
 
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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2016, 09:55:09 PM »
So the real question becomes....where can you buy good files?  Some of the Grobets fit our needs ...i had a Nicholson saw file bend when I used it out of the pack.  Psycho question, but has anyone tried to re-heat treat one of the Mexican files to harden it up...with some anti-scale on it and warm brine it might perform?  Just a crazy idea ....

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2016, 10:18:57 PM »
Nicolson files are not what they use to be but they are better than Chinese stuff.
 

But just barely.

Bob Roller

Offline Stophel

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2016, 11:31:01 PM »
The new Nicholson files from Mehico are basically useless. I have found Chinese files to work better. Not good, but better.
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Offline James

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2016, 02:22:57 AM »
I know some folks seem to find old stock Nicholsons, but I have no idea how you'd know. I sharpen my handsaws using these. They do wear out after 8-10 saws, but the last Nicholson I bought didn't make it through one 26" saw.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1,320,43072,43089,69854

For what my opinion is worth, I too sharpen my own saws and have been using these files for several years with good success.
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2016, 02:50:59 AM »
Sawatis - When Nicholson actually made good files, they hardened their 1095 files by heating 1440F in a lead pot, then quenching straight down into cool salt water.
Not sure what mix they used but 13 ounces of sodium chloride (common salt) in a gallon of water makes a good quench.

But before they heated the file they coated it with "cyanide loaf" to keep any carbon from burning out of that very fine tooth edge. This was  a mix of flour, bone black and potassium ferrocyanide, all mixed up in salt water. Our Fine Govt then prohibited the use of potassium ferrocyanide for heat treating - which incidentally is why you can no longer get Kasenit.  Funny thing though, looking at the ingredients in our local grocery store brand of Sea Salt and it contained . . . yes, it had potassium ferrocyande added to prevent caking. Yes, Washington DC says it is unsafe to use this stuff for heat treating, but you can eat a little if you wish.

Also outside of Nicholson's control about 1980 the Cleveland bar mill that had made 1.3 and 1.4% carbon steel (VERY high carbon) discontinued those grades, so left Nicholson only with about 1% carbon steel (AISI 1095). The real high carbon steel files were labeled "BLACK DIAMOND" and had the tangs forged out rather than just blanked out.

I am a metallurgist. I used to work for a company that supplied the heat resistant nickel-chromium-iron alloy for Nicholson's lead pots. In the process of customer support I had occasion to chat with their engineers about how files had been made over the years.

Personally I think the reason no one makes good files in the USA is there is no serious industrial demand for them. Craftsmen don't, in my opinion, buy enough good files to keep an American business going. Europe has a different level of craftsmanship, and they make good files.

Can't comment on the metallurgy but from personal observation I'd say Brazil obviously does not know how to cut file teeth.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2016, 04:32:52 AM »
Always wondered about the "Black Diamond" designation.

So those are better candidates for re-conditioning (Black Diamond)?

I have way too many files ready to "send in" than I can pay for reconditioning service on at the moment, but need to get  some done for sure.



BTW Jim Kelly, resident ALR metallurgist on hand ;D , how does file reconditioning work?  If you know and it's not a proprietary item.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 05:34:47 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2016, 06:23:22 AM »
Boss just handed me a new Nicholson file at work a few days ago and it went dull with the first use. And this was just to knock off a burr on a piece of 1018.
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2016, 08:43:30 PM »
WadePatton - sorry, I know less than nothing about file reconditioning. It is one of the Mysterious Things I read about on this forum

Clark B - that was one $#*! of a piece of 1018

One way to make the teeth dull quickly is NOT to use something, like that cyanide loaf, to keep the tiny thin cutting tips from loosing a little carbon when at 1440F or so in air. Burn out just a little carbon and the tooth will be softer.

Bye, bye American file

Sawatis

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2016, 12:22:28 AM »
Hey JC,
Thanks for the info...I was sort of thinking along those lines...Ive used Brownell's antiscale compound wth good success on thin high carb material...I was figuring the files were probably 1095 and the brine quench is what I use on my gun springs so I figured that would work....I'm thinking of trying this out on a new file...degreased of course and coated and se how it holds up compared to a sister file of the same kind. I file a lot of spring steels so some of these files have dies very quickly on me and acid etches really don't cut it (no pun intended)...I will keep all appraised of the experiment as I get into it...
John

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2016, 01:29:23 AM »
WadePatton - sorry, I know less than nothing about file reconditioning. It is one of the Mysterious Things I read about on this forum

Clark B - that was one $#*! of a piece of 1018

One way to make the teeth dull quickly is NOT to use something, like that cyanide loaf, to keep the tiny thin cutting tips from loosing a little carbon when at 1440F or so in air. Burn out just a little carbon and the tooth will be softer.

Bye, bye American file

When I was working at Shiloh Wolf bought an acid sharpening system. I tried it on a file or two. Being acid it etches the file making a rough surface and chips, especially wood, sticks to the etch like you would not believe. I never bothered again. Easier to just buy a new file.

Dan
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Offline RickH

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2016, 12:56:48 AM »
Here's Another source for American made Ferrier rasps. 
"St Criox Valley forge", makes them right here in Forest Lake, Minnesota.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2016, 01:20:03 AM »
For what it's worth, when they still made good stuff Nicholson Ferrier's rasps were metallurgically different from metal-work files.

A file used to shape metal is, well, file-hard all the way through. Which means it is not too hard to break it in half.

As they explained to me, now & again the Ferrier has to get the horse's attention. This he does by rapping him on the foot with his rasp. Were the rasp the same metal as a file, it would break sometimes, disrupting that particular communication.

So a rasp, at least a Ferrier's rasp, was made of a medium carbon steel. At that time it was AISI 1035. This stuff has a nominal 0.35% carbon, as opposed to the nominal 0.95% carbon in the AISI 1095 used for US-made Nicholson files since about 1980.

This medium carbon steel is tougher, that is it will take more of a pounding without breaking than would a 1095 rasp.

But the teeth would not keep an edge quite so well. So, until Our Gov't put an end to it, they coated the rasps well with "cyanide loaf" to give it a very light case.

Don't know what is done today.

I suppose the only practical use for this knowledge is that if you intend to make knives out of old files - use rasps for throwing knives, things that must take a beating, for rough treatment. A knife to hold an edge, or a wood working tool, would be better made from an old Nicholson metal-cutting file.

Offline frogwalking

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Re: Anyone still buying Nicholson files?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2016, 03:10:10 AM »
If they still make good files in Europe, we should be buy to buy them.  Does anyone know a source/brand?
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