English Sporting Rifle

[elk killer]

planning a English Sporting Rifle
to build for myself, but want to do it in flint,
is and commercial flintlock suitable?

[sz]

Sure, the Chambers Late Ketland would be my pick.

[WKevinD]

I like the Chambers round face English.

[Herb]

I built one.  Go to SEARCH.  Search for English Sporting Rifle by user Herb.  No other options.  Hit "Search".  The second post, ".54 English Sporting Rifle" posted Dec. 21, 2013 describes the rifle.  The first post of July 18, 2014 shows more photos and load testing.  I don't know how to move the quote here, but it is easy to look up.  This rifle is now near Grand Junction.  If you want to talk to the hunter who now uses it for big game hunting, I could E-mail him if you want to talk with him.

[jerrywh]

 It depends on what era of rifle you intend to build.  I would like a Twigg for an rifle of about 1780 to 1795 or a Manton for a lter style.  The Twigg would take a davis twigg lock. A Manton lock for the later. Many people confuse the Fowlers with the Rifles on the earlier stuff and they are not much different around 1750 and earlier. The round faced locks are mostly for early fowlers but not always. 

[elk killer]

i have a .58 tapered barrel thats 36 inches, 1 1/8 th at the breech,
was thinking half stock and double set triggers,

[smart dog]

Hi Elk Killer,
Currently, I am working on one, although I have to put it aside for a while.  With respect to the lock, you might want to decide what period you want to represent.  Many on this forum can list details of what makes an "early" Lancaster versus a "golden age" Lancaster or early Virginia, etc.   Yet it seems many lump all English "sporting" rifles and fowlers together as if the styles never changed between about 1650 to the end of the flint period.  There were significant style changes over that time span.  The first thing to appreciate is that English rifles were built for the landed elite, since they were the only people with access to estates for big game hunting.  There likely were no "poor boy" English rifles.  English makers did make some rifles for frontier and Indian trade, but even those were of a very high quality.  Chambers, Davis, and, L&R round-faced locks are appropriate for English rifles made during the early 18th century up to about 1750. Many early "deer park" rifles were breech loaders using the screw-plug system. The Turvey rifle in RCA volume 1 is perhaps a good example of a muzzleloading rifle from that period.  Look at it carefully because it is not shaped like the Twigg and Clark rifles shown in Neal and Back's "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790".  After about 1750, most high-end English guns were using flat-faced locks.  Chambers early Ketland with pan bridle would be a good choice for a rifle from 1750-1770 or so.  The Griffin rifle shown in Bailey's "British Military Flintlock Rifles" might be a fair example of rifles from this time period.  After about 1775, features like roller frizzens, stirrups on tumblers, set triggers, scrolled trigger guards, wrist checkering began to become common.  The famous Twigg rifles in Neal and Back's might be good examples.  Davis' Twigg lock and  L&R Durs Egg lock would make good choices for this period.  After 1785 or 1790, rifles often were half stocked, all carving gone, had checkered wrists, locks with rollers on the frizzen springs, patent breeches, pineapple scrolled trigger guards, and metal ribs.  Chambers late Ketland might be a good choice for that period.

dave     

[Bob Roller]

Hi Elk Killer,
Currently, I am working on one, although I have to put it aside for a while.  With respect to the lock, you might want to decide what period you want to represent.  Many on this forum can list details of what makes an "early" Lancaster versus a "golden age" Lancaster or early Virginia, etc.   Yet it seems many lump all English "sporting" rifles and fowlers together as if the styles never changed between about 1650 to the end of the flint period.  There were significant style changes over that time span.  The first thing to appreciate is that English rifles were built for the landed elite, since they were the only people with access to estates for big game hunting.  There likely were no "poor boy" English rifles.  English makers did make some rifles for frontier and Indian trade, but even those were of a very high quality.  Chambers, Davis, and, L&R round-faced locks are appropriate for English rifles made during the early 18th century up to about 1750. Many early "deer park" rifles were breech loaders using the screw-plug system. The Turvey rifle in RCA volume 1 is perhaps a good example of a muzzleloading rifle from that period.  Look at it carefully because it is not shaped like the Twigg and Clark rifles shown in Neal and Back's "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790".  After about 1750, most high-end English guns were using flat-faced locks.  Chambers early Ketland with pan bridle would be a good choice for a rifle from 1750-1770 or so.  The Griffin rifle shown in Bailey's "British Military Flintlock Rifles" might be a fair example of rifles from this time period.  After about 1775, features like roller frizzens, stirrups on tumblers, set triggers, scrolled trigger guards, wrist checkering began to become common.  The famous Twigg rifles in Neal and Back's might be good examples.  Davis' Twigg lock and  L&R Durs Egg lock would make good choices for this period.  After 1785 or 1790, rifles often were half stocked, all carving gone, had checkered wrists, locks with rollers on the frizzen springs, patent breeches, pineapple scrolled trigger guards, and metal ribs.  Chambers late Ketland might be a good choice for that period.

dave     

Of the commercial locks I think the Late Ketland is the one I'd use
if I couldn't make my own.
I have used the Chambers external parts for the late Ketland and it is
a neat lock.High quality castings and easy to work with.

Bob Roller

[James Rogers]

If you want to go real early, say 1675-80 you could do this. Dog lock, 12 ga. rifled breech loader.
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/slideshow/english%20doglock%20breechloader?sort=3

Sure wish my wallet wasn't empty when I had the opportunity for that one!

[jerrywh]

I never have seen a English sporting rifle with double set triggers.  Single set maybe.

[smart dog]

That was a beautiful and rare gun, Mike.  I think I mentioned that I thought it was part of the Neal collection at one time.  Jerry, I agree about set triggers.  I believe the famous Twigg rifles in Neal and back's book have single set triggers.

dave

[Bob Roller]

I never have seen a English sporting rifle with double set triggers.  Single set maybe.

Lynton McKenzie had a Fenton 16 bore target rifle with double set triggers that was shown years ago in the old Buckskin Report. He and Steve Alexander duplicated it at no small cost for an American target shooter.
This rifle had a tiny pocket pistol lock that was used because it would transfer the abrupt opening of the frizzen when the gun was fired.I had the lock briefly to reharden the frizzen after several seasons of service.
The article mentioned that double set triggers were rare on English guns but not common. Single set triggera are more common than we think.Most English single sets have NO visible adjustment screw and if a single set trigger is thought to be on a rifle or pistol,simply push forward on the back of the triggerand if you feel a spring or it "clicks" and sets,then you know what it is.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

I never have seen a English sporting rifle with double set triggers.  Single set maybe.

Lynton McKenzie had a Fenton 16 bore target rifle with double set triggers that was shown years ago in the old Buckskin Report. He and Steve Alexander duplicated it at no small cost for an American target shooter.
This rifle had a tiny pocket pistol lock that was used because it would transfer the abrupt opening of the frizzen when the gun was fired.I had the lock briefly to reharden the frizzen after several seasons of service.
The article mentioned that double set triggers were rare on English guns but not common. Single set triggera are more common than we think.Most English single sets have NO visible adjustment screw and if a single set trigger is thought to be on a rifle or pistol,simply push forward on the back of the triggerand if you feel a spring or it "clicks" and sets,then you know what it is.

Bob Roller

Amend the statement about the tiny lock to say it would NOT transfer any motion to the gun.
I have to go now and get my second cup of coffee.

Bob Roller

[elk killer]

Dave, thanks that was helpful
there is a English Sporting Rifle on the TOTW web site,
by Tom Hardy, its percussion, with double set triggers,
was thinking something like that only in a flintlock.
i have a very nicely figured piece of Myrtlewood,
and also have a super figured piece of Curley Ash,
may not be PC correct, but would be different,
wanted to maybe use the double set triggers,
designed by Ron Long, that Davis makes,  

this is all in the very early planning stage,
not set in stone on anything yet besides it being flint....
build what you want right?

[Daryl]

Here is the picture of 3 English Flint rifles.  The top one is a 6 bore. Note the number of barrel keys - as smoothbore 1/2 stock guns usually had only one, I think.