Philip Creamer Rifle(lots of pics)

[MontanaFrontier86]

I went and visited the Missouri History Museum last week to take a look at this Philip Creamer rifle. I hope to replicate it. Its my next project. This rifle was built for William Clark sometime between 1807 to 1838 when Clark died. Clark and Creamer may have became acquainted with each other shortly after Creamer arrived in the area in 1805. By 1809 they certainly knew each other with the founding of the Missouri Fur Company. Clark as one of the founders and Creamer as a contracted gunsmith thru one of the other founders William Morrison. Creamer is also known to have done gunsmithing and black smith work for the bureau of Indian Affairs, which Clark was superintendent for almost 20 years, throughout the 1820's and 1830's. The fact that this gun appears to be a conversion from flintlock is one indicator that it may be on the earlier end of this date range since by the 1830's Creamer was making his own percussion weapons. This gun of William Clark is likely one of the two undescribed "rifle guns" or the "hunting Rifle" listed on the inventory of Clarks estate at the time of his death. The rifle is a 45 Caliber with maple fullstock. Here are some pictures I took along with a picture of my measurements. Here is a link to the album with 68 pictures. <iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/teutonicpanzer86/embed/slideshow/Philip%20Creamer%20Rifle"></iframe>

[PPatch]

Love that patchbox design, although the placement seems a bit low. Nice rifle overall.

dave

[Bob Roller]

Elegance in the grand manner IMHO. The checkering sets it apart and the trigger guard
is perfect. I made a lock for Bob Browner's Creamer pistol copy and wondered if Mr. Creamer
had ever made a rifle. Thanks for showing this one.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

That's a nice looking gun, would be great to repop.

[Curt J]

I had seen photos of this rifle several years ago, courtesy of two other members of ALR.  I have a keen interest in Philip Creamer, especially since most of his gunmaking in the Mississippi Valley was done on the Illinois side of the river.  My comment when I first saw photos of this rifle, was that it looks like an American Long Rifle would look....if John Manton had made them. It is magnificent!

[Clowdis]

The checkering does give it an English tone doesn't it? Looks like flat top but can't really tell if that's what it is or if it's just worn.

[rich pierce]

That's a great looking rifle.  I've often thought of the Hawken brothers as innovators but this shows many features we might expect or hope to find on a flintlock Hawken rifle, with possibly more refinement.

[Ray Nelson]

Thanks for posting the great photographs! Enjoyed viewing them very much.  Phillip Creamer has always been one of those early builders I feel deserving of much more credit in the evolving quality frontier rifle selection.

Ray

[MontanaFrontier86]

I'm glad everyone has enjoyed the Pictures. I'm happy I could contribute to the board something as well. The rifle has many of the characteristics of the Hawken in my opinion. The beaver tail cheek piece. The Wedge keys, and being iron mounted, has a similar trigger guard with the scroll on it. You can tell Philip appreciated English work as well, the gun looks very English to me. The rifle is simple yet very elegant. Ill be starting on a recreation of this rifle in a couple weeks and will post pics as I come along with it and probably ask a lot of questions along the way.

[James Rogers]

A most elegant piece. It immediately goes in my favorites list. Love the engraving.

[Tom Currie]

Elegant fits it well for me also. Love the patch box ( almost Kibler-esque ) . Delicately done fore stock molding shown a bit in the picture of the entry pipe.

Thanks for posting.

[Chuck Burrows]

Another Creamer rifle rirca late 1830's. Nat'l Museum of the Cowboy and Western Heritage, Norman, OK.


and one of his flintlocks on an earlier pistol


Creamer reportedly built the pistols that were carried by Jed Smith, when he was killed on the Santa Fe Trail in 1831. The pistols were recovered from the Comanche, and were later stolen from the museum they were housed in durug the early 1960's IIRC

There was something of a direct connection with the Hawken shop - when Creamer decided to no longer take on the contract with the USA Indian Dept, he recommended the Hawken Shop who took it.

[Majorjoel]

Thank you Montana and Chuck for all of the pictures! I have been an enthusiast (fan club member) of Philip Creamer ever since I first ran across his work and life story many years ago. I see a lot of quality similarities between Creamer's work along side the likes of James Haslett of Baltimore and late period work of Jacob Kuntz in Philadelphia.  I often wonder if these gunsmiths knew each other or perhaps at least knew of each others work?   Great stuff!

[Curtis]

Thanks for sharing the photos and measurements Montana!  That is one nicely crafted rifle!

Curtis

[Swampwalker]

Oh my, that is a great rifle!  Yes, very much in the Philadelphia tradition with a bit of kentucky thrown in - the way the patchbox flares out to meet the buttplate return and toeplate.  The qualithy of the engraving is fantastic.  A very worthy project indeed.  Thanks so much for sharing.

[Steve-In]

Two things that I notice on the Clark rifle is the lock seems to be a top line quality lock.  It looks better than usually seen on rifles of this period.  Also who ever did the conversion did an excellent job.
His other work looks to use similar high end locks.
Thank you for the pictures.

[Chuck Burrows]

Steve - Creamer was well known in period as a maker of high quality locks, both flint as well as percussion

[timM]

A bit of an aside regarding Jed Smith Creamer pistol(s).

It been mentioned in different sources that a pair of Phillip Creamer flint conversion pistols were taken from Mr. Smith by the Mexican Alcalde upon his illegal entry into Mexican California in 1828. One of this pair is thought to be in the possession of San Diego County Historical Society the other having gone missing in the past. (This I am inclined to believe to be correct).

The Jed Smith Society (Jedediahsmithsociety.org) shows a pistol said to have been recovered by Mexican traders from Comanche Indians upon his death. Not noted to have been a Phillip Creamer pistol? and their poor photo of this pistol makes me doubt it being a Creamer pistol. This site also mentions it having gone missing in San Diego in 1961? 

The Cody Museum I believe has a pistol with Jed Smiths name that is of English origin. So, criss cross apple sauce regarding Jedediah Smith's pistols. Regardless, Mr. Smith was an interesting man and Phillip Creamer a grand gunsmith.  I also really like the rifle that MontanaFrontier86 has highlighted belonging to the Missouri Historical Museum.

[gwill]

Thank you sharing a great set of photos of a terrific rifle!

[smylee grouch]

Is the butt plate on that rifle made from two pieces brazed together? I wonder if Creamer had any association with Jacob Kuntz in Phild. as Kuntz also used alot of English features and great engraving and quality parts.

[bama]

Yes the Butt Plate is two pieces and it is a great piece of workmanship!

[Steve-In]

Thank you Chuck. 

[Joe S]

Very interesting measurements.  The LOP is 12 ½” and Clark was over 6 feet tall. Not the way we build these days.

Are you going to do your build with the same LOP?

[MontanaFrontier86]

Chuck, no I won't do that lop. I'm going to build it to fit me because I intend to use it for hunting. It will have a 13 7/8" pull.