So, where do you think this rifle was made?

[JTR]

I bought this rifle many moons ago, thinking someday I would do a little work on it and make it look a bit better.
When I bought it, my ol' friend had an idea of where it was made. And after looking at it after purchase, I had an idea of a different area. So what do you guys think?

It looks like it has always been a flint, and it looks like this lock has been there since original. However, the butt plate is only 1 1/8 inch wide so its not an early rifle. The barrel is 44" long, about 45 cal rifled. At the breech its about 1" wide, and slightly swamped. Overall, the gun is missing a few parts, including the front trigger.
It has a nice patchbox, engraved with a cool looking pooch, and I think the patchbox and engraving style might well be indicative of where it was made. Other engraved parts are the silver cheekpiece inlay, the brass toe plate, the trigger guard, the long inlay under the forearm and the tail of the rear RR pipe. All are engraved in the style of the patchbox. The barrel is held with 3 flat slotted captive keys with silver oval inlays.

This was obviously a pretty nice rifle when new, but has seen a tough life since.
So where do you guys think it was made?
And thanks for your thoughts!
   

[Tanselman]

It's a good looking rifle. Its patchbox shape and single trigger strongly suggest a New York origin. The cheekpiece is also a "little different" from its positioning on the butt, again suggesting New York. The overall gun looks almost too good to be from New York, but probably western part of that State.  It's unfortunate we no longer have Bruce Miller with us to help on rifles that may have a NY origin...he knew them, and could confirm or deny if made there. Shelby Gallien

[cshirsch]

New York

[JTR]

Thanks for your thoughts Shelby.
The trigger plate has a slot for a forward trigger and hole for adjusting screw, but the lock does function just fine from the rear trigger.
And yes, Bruce continues to be missed.
John

And thank you too, Chriss.

[cshirsch]

Thanks for your thoughts Shelby.
The trigger plate has a slot for a forward trigger and hole for adjusting screw, but the lock does function just fine from the rear trigger.
And yes, Bruce continues to be missed.
John

And thank you too, Chriss.

:-)

[Tanselman]

In my first reply, I should have mentioned that details in the patchbox engraving ["leaf" pattern on lid, rays on finial, etc.] also look like New York work.   

Shelby Gallien

[JTR]

Okay, thank you guys. New York it is, and that was my thinking as well. The 'leaf' and 'ray' patterns are carried out on the other engraved parts as well. 
Wishful thinking had it being made elsewhere.

If anyone is interested in a New York rifle, let me know!

Thanks, John

[Daryl]

I am surprised the lock works using the rear (set) trigger - if the front trigger is missing and the rifle was originally a double trigger system.
That the rear trigger drops the hammer, is odd.

[JTR]

Daryl, If it was originally a double set double phase type of trigger, the rear trigger would fire the rifle whether the set trigger was there or not. Or maybe this is just a replacement trigger from sometime along the line?
John

[RAT]

This is the third rifle on which I've seen this patchbox.

I'm doing this from memory... so I may not be spot-on...

On one the patchbox is made from pieces of bone. The rifle appears in one of the "Accoutrements" books by Johnson. I can't remember which volume. He attributes it to North Carolina. The same rifle appeared in a Whisker article in Muzzle Blasts. He stated it was made in South Carolina by Patrick Hoy. I believe Hoy immigrated from Ireland.

The other rifle is owned by a member of our gunmakers guild. I posted photos here several years ago. If I find it, I'll link the post.

[RAT]

I found the post... but the photos seem to be lost.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=47140.msg472737#msg472737

In a few days I'll try to re-post photos on the current thread.

[JTR]

I'd much appreciate it if you could post the pictures!
North Carolina is getting closer to where my friend thought it was from.

[Ky-Flinter]

I found the post... but the photos seem to be lost.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=47140.msg472737#msg472737

In a few days I'll try to re-post photos on the current thread.

I have updated the picture links in the thread mentioned above, so that the pictures are now visible. 

-Ron

[RAT]

John... I sent you an email with some images. I also have some pdf's to send you, but need an actual email address. I'd love to see more photos of details (ramrod pipes, trigger guard/trigger, muzzle cap, etc.).

On the rifle our guild member has, the patchbox release is hidden under the upper side plate of the patchbox. Press on the rear of the plate and the box lid opens. I believe the bone inlay rifle (that Whisker attributes to Patrick Hoy) has the release in the toe plate. Can you send or post images of the release on your rifle for comparison? For folks on the forum, here's an image of the one I examined...



The lock on your rifle if interesting. Opinions from others?

Also... you mention that your friend thought your rifle was from North Carolina (or nearby). Can you tell us why? Is there any provenance or collection history that supports that?

This makes 3 rifles with very similar patchboxes. These boxes could be a commercial part made someplace else and sold to gunmakers. These are the only 3 rifles on which I've seen this box, by my access to original rifles is limited. I'm interested in hearing the opinion of the group if anyone recognizes the box from other guns. 

[RAT]

Thanks for fixing the photos on my old post.

[Daryl]

Daryl, If it was originally a double set double phase type of trigger, the rear trigger would fire the rifle whether the set trigger was there or not. Or maybe this is just a replacement trigger from sometime along the line?
John

The rear trigger of double set, double throw, or double set, single throw triggers does not fire the rifle, the front trigger does.
The rear trigger merely sets the front trigger to fire - except on modern TC pistols, where the triggers are backwards.
I assume your thought it might be a replacement, is correct.