Referances to coning

[Dan Herda]

I realize coning has been discussed here many a time. But my question is , does Roberts write about coning at all in his book, The muzzleloading caplock rifle? I thiought it was mentioned in there but cannot find it now. Any help appreciated.

[rich pierce]

Well a cap lock would not need to be coned like a flintlock but he may have talked about patent breeches.

[Dan Herda]

Rich, sorry I wasnt clearer, I am refering to coning the muzzle.

[Daryl]

I have found a long cone increases the friction when loading a tight combination.  I read a paper by Corbin Mfg. who make drawing dies.  Corbin noted the angles for easy drawing (reducing diameter of metals) was quite short, not a long taper which actually increased the pressure needed.

LB's first .40 cal. squirrel rifle had a long 1" to 1 1/2" coned muzzle.  At that time, my .40 had a very short smoothly radiused crown, which more accurately matched Corbin's suggested angles.   LB wanted me to give him some .40 cal balls so I gave him some of the .400" I had been shooting. He noted he could barely load them in his coned muzzle.  I couldn't understand that as we've been told that the cone made loading easier. I then tried his rifle on the trail and he was right - the long cone made loading difficult seemingly due to the long bearing surface whereas the short 1/8" deep, smoothly radiused crown on my rifle was easy to load. This was just as Corbin wrote in his notes on swaging and drawing.

As to reported accuracy improvement by coning, at one time I tested a short 1/2" to 3/4" coned muzzle crown and I found my accuracy diminished. I went back to a short crown and accuracy returned.





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[jimc2]

Daryl I have tried your mathod and love it .however i hurt my crowning thumb perhaps I could borrow yours I need a 50 cal and a 12 gauge.

[EC121]

I tried Daryl's thumb method on a rifle, and just that little bit of radius makes loading a lot easier.  Seems to let the patch slide in the grooves easier.  On smaller calibers I back up the paper with the round end of a screwdriver handle or in the case of my .36cal. the end of a Sharpie pen.

[Daryl]

LOL - just noticed the handcuff case above and to the left of my right fist in the 4th picture.

[Longknife]

Roberts does not mention "coning" or "relieving" or "funneling" or "belling" the muzzle in his description of making a round ball barrel but he does not mention "crowning" either!!!!

 There is one statement that I find very interesting though. On page 103 he describes the loading of a muzzle loading rifle..." Next, place the round ball, with the sprue up,  in the center of the patch--be sure the ball is truly centered in the patch--press the ball down with the thumb even with the muzzle...".  But then he goes on to say.... "then apply the straight starter holding the left hand around the muzzle and the starter and strike the knob of the starter with ball of the right hand thus forcing the ball down the bore the length of the starter rod"....

  In "THE KENTUCK RIFLE " by Dillin. He uses a slightly different approach to load his rifle...on page 93 Dillin states...."a ball is taken from the pouch and placed in the center of the patch. The head of the rod which has been raised with the right hand is brought to bear squarely on the ball, which is forced under pressure down the bore..."

There is one statement that, in my mind,  is absolute proof that the bores of muzzle-loading rifles were "coned" or "relieved" and it was written by the famous barrel maker Bill Large. In "Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's Choice" by John Baird on page 90 Baird states "He (Large) informed us that his first re cutting of a Hawken barrel took place in '29 or '30, and he has re cut from 25 to 30 since then". Baird then inserts quotes from a letter written to him by Bill Large describing the characteristics of Hawken barrels..."All were belled and showed signs of the funneling tool commonly used by most gun smiths, as a request of the owner, to permit fast and easy re loading"....

Here is  a thread on "coning" or "funneling" the muzzle and some pictures of original barrels that have been coned.... Ed

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28972.0

[Ky-Flinter]

.......press the ball down with the thumb even with the muzzle...

The statement above from Roberts' book would seem to indicate either a coned muzzle or a loose fitting ball and patch.

-Ron

[Dan Herda]

Thank you Ed for the input and the link to the old thread.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I remember Ned using linen and sperm whale oil for patch and lube.  Perhaps he did use a loose combination?!

[Joe S.]

Daryl,Taylor when you guys are using your thumb with paper trick to take the edge of the barrel for ease of loading are you going in both directions?or just staying with the twist?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I stick my thumb as far into the abrasive material as it will go, and twist the thumb and the barrel at the same time, in opposite directions.  I count to twenty, then flip the rifle 180 degrees, and repeat.  That's usually all it takes.  You can finish as fine as you wish, but 400 is lots fine enough for the polishing part.  I start with 180 grit aluminum oxide cloth.

[hammer]

I have seen deer rifles here in the UK that had been coned, "funneled".   With one a few years ago that had been shortened recently and the foresight re-inlet so as to remove the 'wear' at the muzzle.  Ruined the dimensions of an otherwise valuable rifle.

[steeler61065]

Would coning interfere with jug choking at all

[Daryl]

If you look through the huge book on Jaeger rifles, the muzzles show careful filing, both lands and grooves, but mostly lands, filed out to the groove depth, then a bit more, with the grooves filed slightly at the very muzzle.  Non of these muzzle crowns or cones if that is what you wish to call them, appears deeper than 3/16", most appear only 1/8". Such is the case with the Hawken rifles as well, in appearance, in another of Taylor's books.

However, due to the appearance if not looked at closely and in detail, the muzzles appear to be cut square - with no crowning at all - such is the style of the filing at the muzzle.  Some appear to be ROUND, others square-ish but looking further into the muzzle, you can see the rifling & the angles of fling up to the grooves and lands.

[CTShooter]

I also did the "thumb trick" to my .50 T/C Hawken because of difficulty in loading a tight ball/patch combo, trying to correct the massive fouling, having to clean all the time thing that I knew just wasn't right.

Thanks to this site, I was able to figure out most of the issues, I can shoot as many rounds as I want, hit the 100 yard gong at will and not clean until I want too.

Now that I know about the coning, I look for it on period pieces now.

[Daryl]

I should note here, that simply finding a load combination that does not require wiping, does not actually guarantee accuracy.  Case in point, is my new .50 A.Verner rifle.  First day at the range, I was using an 8 ounce denim I measure at .019" to .020" with dial calipers, compressed as hard as my forefinger and thumb can provide.

The combination shot quite cleanly & didn't require wiping at any time, but the material showed stress from the lands with the odd brown scorch streak from the grooves. This was obvious on the picked up patches. The accuracy was not up to the standard I have become used to, either, and with that long sight radius, not good enough, with fliers.

I switched to a thicker yet ticking patch that I measure at .0235", (and call "railroad mattress ticking") and the "troubles" of stresses and scorching went away. Not only that, but these 'new' patches produced improved, repeatable accuracy with no fliers.  After a day's shooting, the water bucket, after cleaning, showed slight discolouration only - slightly grey, showing absolutely no fouling buildup.

I had assumed the fliers I was seeing on the paper with the .020" patches might have been me with this new flinter and different sights, but turned out to be a patch that was not thick enough. I was using Hornady .495" swaged balls.  From now on, it has to be the thicker patch as the 'thin' .020" was not enough due to the rounded grooves in this 48" barrel.