Author Topic: Small Bores  (Read 11134 times)

rhbrink

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Small Bores
« on: March 30, 2016, 05:55:00 PM »
After looking at the Generic Lancaster by frogwalking which is a very nice rifle and the type of rifle that I like. I was wondering when the smaller bores started becoming more popular? I always thought that up until the Revolution most rifles were probably about 50 cal. or larger and pretty much anything else would have been a Fouler or musket of some sort? So when did the gun makers start producing smaller bores say 40 cal. and down, 1800? Before or after that? I realize that the smaller bores would have probably not been popular until an area was well settled and most of the really big game was thinned out and most likely would have started in the North East spreading South and then West as the population moved farther out. Just curious?

RB

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2016, 06:35:14 PM »
Lots of things contributed to the reduction in bore sizes.  I'm only mentioning two here, as I'm not heavily versed in the Early guns or Colonial gear. 

Rifling:  Rifling brought greater accuracy and greater range, such that less lead could reach out further.  Shooting matches probably fits in here somewhere too.

Hog Rifle = Appalachian Longrifle of smallish bore: Not a gun for chasing wild boar, but a utility gun for the farm-type homesteads of the Southeast, used for dispatching livestock and also gathering small game, and would also poke a hole in a man who presented a threat. The same gun today is called a "twentytwo".

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2016, 06:49:12 PM »
There are some Rev War guns in the .42 to .48 cal range. While we don't have many documented accounts for bore size reduction in the east in the early 1800s it makes sense there was not much very large or dangerous game. Back then a .36 could be used for deer I suppose by a crack shot who could wait for the right opportunity.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 08:03:01 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2016, 08:03:39 PM »
According to "Firearms of the American West", there were a number of orders for rifles from the Western retailers, back to the Eastern States for rifle bores from 140 to 32 to the pound. These 'orders' included gun weights and barrel lengths - 8 to 10 pounds and barrels from 3' to 4'. Not all guns ordered from the West, were short 1/2 stocks, nor were they all single-shot rifles, but SXS rifles, single and SXS shotguns and "smooth rifles" as well, flint and percussion guns included.  I think the copies of these orders seem to run early to mid 1800's.
Daryl

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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 04:28:23 AM »
This is probably one of the harder questions to answer that I have seen posted here, Rhbrink.  A lot of what I am going to say here is just my theory, so don't take this a anything backed by years of research.

I am of the opinion that many rifles were made prior to 1780 that were less than 50 caliber.  In fact, I think it could have been a slight majority that were less than 50.  There are several reasons I believe this.  First, much hunting done in the 1760s and 1770s was done for small game.  It is a romantic notion that everybody went out looking for deer and elk.  But that ignores the fact that these people were not wasteful, and on the contrary, quite frugal.  This meant in all ways... Lead and powder were more expensive compared to today.  Smaller bores meant more shots.  Also, a smaller bore was probably a less expensive gun.  Considering that at the time, the price of a new rifle was about half the average annual wage at the time, it makes sense smaller bores would have been used by most of the people.  Additionally, most families could not finish off a deer in a week, and though there were methods of preserving meat at the time, it would have been more of a winter time activity to go for deer, when the weather was cold.  It is well documented that domestic animals (excluding chickens) were slaughtered in the fall, so that preservation had a better chance of success.

We also have good evidence that many of these early rifles, once the rifling was shot out, were re-bored and re-rifled.  This would also indicate that those we can study are not of the original, smaller caliber.  Some rifles had this done several times, depending on how heavily they were used.  Which is another point... The more a rifle was used, the more likely it is that it didn't survive for us to be able to study it.  Of course the larger bores were out there, but I believe this was more common in fowlers and muskets.  Once the Kentucky territory became a popular hunt, bore size probably increased due to larger game like elk.

Back in my younger days, I used to live in the sticks and hunted all of my own meat.  That was rabbit in the majority.  Every shoot a rabbit with a 50 caliber with a body shot?  Not much left of it, and not much hide to tan.  I used to take head-shots with a 45 caliber, and that was a little overkill, but worked well for me.  That was an old Italian-made cheap ML too... lol.

Just my opinion though.  Would love to hear any arguments to the contrary.

Matt



Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 04:41:38 AM »
M.E. I have to agree in part. Back then the people survived by living off the land. I believe strongly that they were better skilled at hunting than we are now. An the smaller caliber rifle was a deadly weapon. Because they understood its capabilities an didn't take poor shots with them. They also new that when they fired there weapon .They might draw unwanted attention. But in my opinion I believe the smoothbore was much more popular. My thoughts only

Offline frogwalking

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 06:06:17 AM »
The .32 caliber  Lancaster that sparked this discussion was originally intended to ne a southern hog rifle.   The original owner sold the stock and inletted barrel to me as  he changed his plan of action and started working on another project.  The only southern rifle I  was knowledgeable about is a Tennessee mountain rifle with the deep curved buttplate.  The stock did not have enough length to install a Tennessee type plate.  I had, and still have a .40 Rice Southern Classic in a nice mineral streaked walnut stock.  The .32 then was attractive for me as I had given a .32 caliber rifle to my daughter a few years ago.  I decided to make a Lancaster out of it because of the flat Lancaster buttplate, and I like that style.  A limited amount of research turned up one original small caliber Lancaster so I didn't feel totally in outfield with this build.

Someone mentioned hunting in the old days with small bore hog rifles.  It is currently legal in Tennessee to take dear and bear with a .36 caliber muzzle loading rifle.
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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 06:22:01 AM »
If you can put your shots right, about any caliber can take down about any game you want.  I am a head-shooter.  I have never taken game with a body shot.  36 caliber will take down an elephant, if you know where to put the shot.  For small game, I aim for the eye.  It drops them where they stand.  I only shoot what I will eat, unless it is a tin can or bottle.  For target shooting, smaller calibers are usually better, since there is less mass to the ball/bullet.  Small calibers are good for that, and until baseball came along, the most popular sport in the USA was shooting. 

Matt

ddoyle

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 07:17:12 AM »
Quote
I am a head-shooter.

Please do not encourage that. suit your self but do it quietly.

Not judging you, I am sure you can shoot the eye out of a gnat in flight but most people cannot.

BTW it is odd that Mr Bell did not step down form the high sectional density projectiles in favor a .36 RB if they are that much hammer on elephants ;D
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 07:19:35 AM by ddoyle »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2016, 01:59:38 PM »
If you can put your shots right, about any caliber can take down about any game you want.  I am a head-shooter.  I have never taken game with a body shot.  36 caliber will take down an elephant, if you know where to put the shot.  For small game, I aim for the eye.  It drops them where they stand.  I only shoot what I will eat, unless it is a tin can or bottle.  For target shooting, smaller calibers are usually better, since there is less mass to the ball/bullet.  Small calibers are good for that, and until baseball came along, the most popular sport in the USA was shooting. 

Matt


A .36 caliber like the 9.3x74R is a .366 and with a solid bullet it will no doubt take an elephant with a head shot.
So did the .303 British used by Alexander Lake and the .275 Rigby (7mm)did as well. NO .36 round lead ball like we discuss here will down an elephant or much of anything else.
Target shooting with a muzzle loading Schuetzen rifle in .32 (8mm) with a long bullet is fun at 200+ yards and I hear reports from the shop of Helmut Mohr in Mayen/Hausen Germany says the .366 as made by Rice barrel company shoots like a .22  and is a match winner.

Bob Roller

Turtle

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2016, 02:16:44 PM »
 My understanding is that in the east, the over time the reduction of big game left only small game to hunt which didn't need bog bore balls. Originally there were numerous deer, bear, buffalo, and elk. When expansion continued past the Mississippi where there were grizzly's and buffalo, the demand increased for big bores again. Here in NY, original big bores are rare because small game and target shooting were the only uses for a rifle.
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2016, 03:50:35 PM »
I agree with ddoyle. To many times things go wrong on head shots. As for a 36 rb for dangerous game? Not me, common sense gets in the way.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2016, 04:55:33 PM »
Bob - with all due respect, we're talking flint locks, thus a .36 round ball is incapable of killing an elephant unless the elephant's flesh wound got so infected the elephant died from it, which is quite unlikely.
 
A conical from a flint lock would in all likelihood also fail miserably - not making it to the ribs, let along going through or even between to reach the cavity- to much hide, muscle and fat.

The only reason the small bore modern rifles worked was due to enormous sectional density and steel-jacketed solids, neither of which work in muzzleloading BP firearms.

Head shot?  Not a chance with either projectile from a small bore ML. There was a reason why BP rifles for elephants, in Africa, started at 12 bore and rapidly got larger. In India, for the much smaller elephants, bore sizes started at 16 and went to 4.  For Indian game, Forsyth laughed at the small bores of the day, saying they were next to useless - & he was talking about the 24 bore with conicals, ie: .58's.
Daryl

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Offline Ted Kramer

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2016, 05:17:02 PM »
Packing six months worth of lead and powder on a long trek into the wilderness, getting more shots per pound of that lead and powder with a smaller bore could have been a factor.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2016, 05:38:35 PM »
 William Clark referred to his small rifle in the journals of the famous Lewis, and Clark, expedition. For years the thinking was that the gun was made by a smith named Small, because there is an existing muzzleloading rifle, of later period, owned by Clark, that is marked Small. But, recently information has come to light, that specifies the ball per pound of the gun on the expedition. It works out to .36 caliber. Clark also states that the gun was effective on all western species, except, the great grizzly bears, and Buffalo. I guess it isn't what your shooting, as much as where you shoot the game, and at what range.

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Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2016, 05:43:24 PM »
Small bore rifles were not unkown in Europe... Early as well. Most "Tschinke" wheelock small game rifles from Silesia which is now the area of Southern Poland/Northern Czech Republick were small bore short barrel type firearms... These were also still in use in Europe in the 18th century so any gunsmith who was from northern Europe would have known about small bore rifles such as these when moving to the colonies... and plenty of the gunsmiths who ended up making American rifles came from or were taught by such imigrants...

Then you also have the smaller bore short barreled Southern European "Stuetzer" type rifles being built for hunting mountain goats.  
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 05:44:35 PM by Chris Treichel »

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2016, 05:56:45 PM »
I'm not sure the reasoning actually used, I'm sure it had nothing to do with accurate shooters and smart hunters (as laws rarely do), but the current TN rule for big game legal ML is 36.

Of course then we have no African game to contend with and the Elk permits are only 5 or so each year.  No moose, no grizz, and the bears we do hunt are often taken at bay.   

IOW Hog rifles are legally "all around" guns for us, if we choose.
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Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2016, 05:57:10 PM »
Tschinke: http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/211569.html this one is about .38 cal or 9mm

 

Tmas

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2016, 08:04:00 PM »
Bullet size got smaller as the country turned from a fur trade economy to farming.  With the increase in the number of farms the use of .50 to .60 caliber rifles decreased and the number of .40 caliber (.350 to .450)guns increased.  These were used to hunt rabbits, dear, turkey, and geese; and harvest semi wild, farm pigs, goats, and sheep.  Buck shot (.330 to .350) was often loaded ahead of the large musket balls during the Revolutionary war, and was plentiful.  All of this took place from the 1790 on.  A very will written history of mussel loading rifle development can be found in the first chapter of "The Gunsmiths of Grenville" by Peter Alexander.  It takes a relatively large change in rifle caliber to produce a notice difference in performance.  Something like; .32(rabbits), .45 (deer), .54 (Bear/people).

Tmas
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 09:36:31 PM by Tmas »

ddoyle

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2016, 08:18:47 PM »
Below quote from Kist, Dutch Muskets.

Reference to a smooth bore but well on the way to being a small bore (with 40 balls per pound).

" In 1629  an Apprentice gun-maker in Utrecht was required to make 5 1/2 foot long barrel.......weighing three to four pounds and firing a 30 to 40 gauge ball to prove his proficiency"

« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 08:20:39 PM by ddoyle »

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2016, 09:56:35 PM »
If you go to this rifle in the ALR museum and click on one of the shown images you will get a photo bucket look at a 36 caliber rifle made by Frederick Sell of Littlestown PA.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30034.0
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Offline crankshaft

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2016, 10:20:35 PM »
Packing six months worth of lead and powder on a long trek into the wilderness, getting more shots per pound of that lead and powder with a smaller bore could have been a factor.

  That got me thinking, I am not a trekker, but how much wt. would a man carry  on a 6 mo. trip  on foot?  An Eastern longhunter on foot or western mtn. man?  I suppose many did not have or need a horses in the east.
  Including  hatchet/tomahawk, knives, mould, striker, , pots, etc.   A Wool Blanket & a canvas piece can be heavy.  What else can you think of?    How long has it been since you lugged even 5 lbs. around all day?
 How many shots do you think a man would take in 6 months?
How many lbs. powder, lead? 
 Which caliber would you choose?

32 caliber: (.310) 048g—approx 146 balls/pound
36 caliber: (.360) 071g—-approx 98 balls/pound
40 caliber: (.395) 092g—-approx 76 balls/pound
45 caliber: (.445) 133g—-approx 52 balls/pound
50 caliber: (.498) 180g—-approx 38 balls/pound
54 caliber: (.535) 220g—-approx 32 balls/pound
58 caliber: (.560) 280g—-approx 25 balls/pound
62 caliber: (.610) 341g—-approx 20 balls/pound
69 caliber: (.678) 468g—-approx 15 balls/pound
75 caliber: (.715) 545g—-approx 13 balls/pound

ddoyle

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2016, 12:43:51 AM »
a pound of .58 cal balls would be more then sufficient to live comfy for 6 months.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 12:52:24 AM by ddoyle »

Offline frogwalking

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2016, 01:33:43 AM »
Grand discussion!
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Offline crankshaft

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Re: Small Bores
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2016, 01:45:12 AM »
a pound of .58 cal balls would be more then sufficient to live comfy for 6 months.

  I agree.  However, what about the longhunter, after deer hides?  Bear, and whatever critter he wanted to dispatch.     2lbs. of lead  would be 50 shots with the .58 . 
And after 5 1/2 months in the frontier heading home he ran into some disgruntled Shawnee?     
 How many lbs. of lead would you be comfortable carrying into the frontier?