Determine a barrels condition...

[gizamo]

How do we determine the current condition of a barrel. How do we examine the bore, breach, and overall integrity of the barrel?

[WadePatton]

If it's "breached" it's broken!

I wouldn't fret over a little corrosion inside the breech, I wouldn't fret any over a muzzle that needs a fraction of an inch chopped and re-crowned, but if a snug patch on a jag tells me of internal corrosion or tight/loose spots along the length or near the muzzle then the bbl is certainly worth less, if anything to me.





Surest way to tell the condition is to order a fresh one.    

no affiliation with the bbl makers, only admiration for what they do and who they put up with.  

[gizamo]

Good point.  Does anyone consider the condition in determining value?

[Mike Brooks]

I don't believe it makes any difference in a non shooting antique. Honestly I couldn't even tell you the bore condition on my antiques....never checked...what's the point?

[WadePatton]

Depends a lot upon exactly what you are talking about.  Is this a bbl that some guy has in the corner of his shop, or a bbl on a historic or even "vintage" contemporary complete gun, etc.

Condition is always a factor, in everything.

Yes, don't shoot antiques is the best rule ever. 

[gizamo]

So the general consensus is that bore condition has no bearing on the guns value.  A ruined bore is no different then one in good condition and has little to do with the guns history.

[Don Stith]

On an antique rifle, the bore tells you very little about the shootability of the barrel
  Welding flaws and slag inclusions in the iron are disasters waiting to let loose.  I don't know of any simple look-see that is going to identify them. I have no idea what a competent gunsmith,Whatever that is, is going to do to tell you your rifle is or is not good to shoot.  You have been given some very good advice from a number of good black powder builders and collectors , Always a little chaff with the wheat, but that goes with the territory.
 I don't even know the bore size of most of my antiques. It just does not matter in most of them.  Always exceptions like military pieces of course.  Being the wrong caliber or bored smooth is a detriment on them.
 To make it worse, your old rifle, Like all others, is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay you for it.  No more, no less. You not only have value but saleability to think of. If what you do to it scares away a guy that was interested, what have you gained?
 Can't get too blunt with you because the moderators will get upset, but what exactly are you after?  You keep beating around the bush and adding variants of similar questions.

[johngross]

How do we determine the current condition of a barrel. How do we examine the bore, breach, and overall integrity of the barrel?

A quick and basic check can be done with a mini flashlight dropped down the bore. Some companies (Buffalo Arms, Traditions, etc.) make a special light for the purpose, but it's basically the same thing and they charge more for it.

The disadvantage of this is; you won't be able to see the last one or two inches of the breech; it only works for 45 or 50 caliber and larger; and probably won't help with the "overall integrity of the barrel."

I THINK I remember a few years ago someone talking about using a fiber optic light, but I have no experience with using one of those.

[gizamo]

On an antique rifle, the bore tells you very little about the shootability of the barrel
  Welding flaws and slag inclusions in the iron are disasters waiting to let loose.  I don't know of any simple look-see that is going to identify them. I have no idea what a competent gunsmith,Whatever that is, is going to do to tell you your rifle is or is not good to shoot.  You have been given some very good advice from a number of good black powder builders and collectors , Always a little chaff with the wheat, but that goes with the territory.
 I don't even know the bore size of most of my antiques. It just does not matter in most of them.  Always exceptions like military pieces of course.  Being the wrong caliber or bored smooth is a detriment on them.
 To make it worse, your old rifle, Like all others, is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay you for it.  No more, no less. You not only have value but saleability to think of. If what you do to it scares away a guy that was interested, what have you gained?
 Can't get too blunt with you because the moderators will get upset, but what exactly are you after?  You keep beating around the bush and adding variants of similar questions.

Don .... I am looking to buy another different gun.  Did not know...about how or if bore condition mattered.

Sheesh

[WadePatton]

Sorry fellas, I didn't notice that I was in the Antiques section.  I was looking at "recent posts" and responded to the Q in a general tone. 

[GrampaJack]

I agree that the bore condition in an antique not always a major concern. That being said, I usually get around to looking down the hole eventually just to see what is there. I will say this, if I see decent grooves, without massive deep pits, and not plugged with rust, in other words a bore that would compare in condition to the lock and exterior metal parts, I always feel that the gun has been cared for well and I appreciate that. I am always just a little disappointed when an otherwise original gun in excellent condition has a bore that looks like a mile of dirt road. Also, when I am looking at a gun that is clearly a target rifle the bore becomes much more important since the purpose of the gun was to produce better than average accuracy and a bad bore would prevent this. To me this takes away value. By the way, I use a small light that I believe is used to attach to fishing bobbers that will drop down a .25 cal. hole. I get them at the Log Cabin shop in Lodi for about 5 bucks. Best Regards, Jack

[diamante]

If you want to pony up the money you can take it to a NDE Company and have it x-rayed.
(Non Destructive Examination)

[oldtravler61]

Agree 100 percent with Granpajack. Condition is everything . The more pristine the item the higher it's value. On antique guns that includes the bore also. You can purchase a bore scope for under $70 at HBF that works well. Yomv

[Mike Brooks]

Agree 100 percent with Granpajack. Condition is everything . The more pristine the item the higher it's value. On antique guns that includes the bore also. You can purchase a bore scope for under $70 at HBF that works well. Yomv

It makes no difference what so ever what condition the bore is in in a non shooting collectable KY rifle. It does make a big difference in SXS shotguns and shootable military antiques. I don't think anybody these days buys antique KY rifles with shooting in mind. 50-70 years ago yes, now, not so much.

[longrifle]

I agree

[Gaeckle]

Are we talking about old guns, are we talking about old barrels that have been removed from guns and aren seperated from a gun? If we are speaking of just the barrel itself, I think I am the odd ball with regards to old barrels.

I will seek out old original barrels. If the bore is really, really bad I will have it reemed out and re-rifle it if the oportunity allows. If the bore is typical, used, groves are decent, I will use the barrel. If it's a iron barrel as opposed to a steel barrel I won't use it, but will use it as a display when I participate in a show like the one held at the Log Cabin Shop every October. These are great for showing the non believers what old barrels are, how they were made, the difference between steel and iron barrels, how barrels are made today....all sorts of stuff. Last year we had some people visit form China, (guest's of a professor from Ohio State) who watched us rifle a barrel and the old barrels as display were something they had never seen.

For using old barrels in a build, I see no problem. They were made to shoot and the propellent used was black powder.  As long as the patch isn't torn apart and a spin can be put on the ball, the barrel will ussually shoot pretty good. As a rule, the barrels I have and have seen with a bore light pretty much have a twist in the neighborhood of around 1 in 50 to 1 in 60. That doesn't mean that that is concrete and faster twists in smaller calibers can be had, but as far as I have seen most of the twist rates lay within these measures.

I also notice that old barrels rifling have very deep narrow grooves, whereby new barrels have much wider grooves. In shooting old barrels thick patches are pretty much the norm with a grease as opposed to an oil or spit.

It used to be easy finding these at gun shows or old shops but now they are harder to find and when you do come upon them, they aren't cheap. I am willing to spend no more that 30 bucks, but I don't see the practicallity of spending 75 on up on one. But that's just my opinion.

[Dennis Glazener]

For using old barrels in a build, I see no problem. They were made to shoot and the propellent used was black powder.

John,
I think what many (including me) are concerned about is that we have no sure way to know how good the forge welding is after all these years (except xraying?). Its my understanding that even shortly after forge welding a barrel it might have some welds that are not quite right and over the years these might contain inclusions/rust etc (I am no expert on this subject). Yes they can/should be proofed but I suspect all that tells you is that one time, the barrel did not blow. I think  if I wanted to use a "antique" barrel to shoot I would have it re-lined instead of re-rifled. Our eyes and limbs are too important to loose over an old barrel.
Dennis

[JCKelly]

It is still not clear whether gizamo is talking about buying another antique rifle or another modern made muzzle loader

For antiques I personally prefer to see decent rifling but it is not a deciding factor for me. Somewhere I have seen modern devices for inspecting deep holes. I've never used one nor do I remember what they are called.

Do not shoot antiques. Blowing off a few fingers is your own concern.
However, I believe you have an obligation to the next generation to maintain our heritage, our irreplaceable antique rifles, in decent condition.

Somewhere I have a nice wrought iron barrel that burst at the breech firing a blank at Friendship many years ago. When I find it again I'll post some pictures. No injuries. It is a lovely example of how old forge welds held up. Maxine Moss lent it to me, guess I'm overdue on return.

The modern way to find long seams or cracks in steel is called magnetic particle inspection. If you are a rifle manufacturer it is a good thing to do for customer safety and lawsuits.

I personally have no experience using this process on wrought iron, let alone a long forge weld. I doubt that even the best would look very good. 

Just do not shoot antique rifles.

Bought a Val Forgett vintage Zouave replica at Lapeer last month. Inspected the bore by dropping a bore light down it. Looked clean & shiny so I bought it. I know this is heresy - please forgive me - but I  weary of flintlocks.

As far as modern American made muzzle loading barrels are concerned, with the exception perhaps of Ed Rayle's work, my comments tend not to be appreciated.

[ddoyle]

I personally have no experience using this process on wrought iron, let alone a long forge weld. I doubt that even the best would look very good.

On a wet bench with ultraviolet/black light powder it would certainly make an interesting subject to gander at. Interpreting it would be tough! Anything actually open to the surface would be a no brainer but the inclusions would be best refered down the hall to an x-ray or maybe an eddy current guy.

Re the value addition/subtraction that bore condition should have on sale value. Of course it matters, how much depends on the buyer's willingness to pay and on the seller's desire to get paid but it certainly matters as much as a refinish- replacement parts- missing parts matter. No way a relic found in a ditch is going to (or should) fetch the same dollar value as a rifle cleaned- greased and stored away 200 years ago and found in NRA exc-VG condition.
 

[JCKelly]

"wet bench with ultraviolet/black light powder..." is a good way to find surface defects
X-ray is just a picture, it will not show tight cracks.

Magnetic particle inspection, which requires a large machine, will find cracks and defects beneath the surface. it is the process serious modern rifle makers use.

Eddy current, well I have a prejudiced view that its what you do when you want to claim you inspected the metal. I have seen shotgun barrels inspected this way by a bored fellow. I would not, for various reasons including numerous litigated bursts, ever buy a shotgun from this plant.

If you are serious, get it magnetic particle inspected. If not, just have a cup of coffee, or some good Jameson's, and don't worry. Your chances of serious injury are small. Do load the ball firmly on the powder though. 

I have no direct experience mag particle on wrought iron. Still, I would wager some $$$ that a good hand-forged wrought iron barrel would light up wonderfully.

[Gaeckle]

For using old barrels in a build, I see no problem. They were made to shoot and the propellent used was black powder.

John,
I think what many (including me) are concerned about is that we have no sure way to know how good the forge welding is after all these years (except xraying?). Its my understanding that even shortly after forge welding a barrel it might have some welds that are not quite right and over the years these might contain inclusions/rust etc (I am no expert on this subject). Yes they can/should be proofed but I suspect all that tells you is that one time, the barrel did not blow. I think  if I wanted to use a "antique" barrel to shoot I would have it re-lined instead of re-rifled. Our eyes and limbs are too important to loose over an old barrel.
Dennis



I understand what you are saying Dennis, but the old wrougt barrels I have I use in demos and show and tell venus. I would not use those. The old steel barrels I find I re-use them, if I can. Most of these older barrels were stripped of a gun for whatever reason and have just pretty much sat. Many of the ones I have have realy decent rifling and the majority I have are small calibers of anywhere from 30 to no more than 43 and being 7/8ths and up accross the flats. I would guess that the barrels were probably made during the late percussion era from one of the many barrel mills that dotted the country, like Remington. The idea, I would guess, is like the many folks who enjoy shooting original trapdoor Springfields.....old originals right? Old barrels.

But that's just me...the odd guy.

[Dennis Glazener]

I would guess that the barrels were probably made during the late percussion era from one of the many barrel mills that dotted the country, like Remington. The idea, I would guess, is like the many folks who enjoy shooting original trapdoor Springfields.....old originals right? Old barrels.

But that's just me...the odd guy.

Gottcha, no welded barrels. Yep I have/had a few of those that I shoot too.
Dennis