Author Topic: "Trouble" and her stuck ball. An adventure in unintentional dry balling.  (Read 12173 times)

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Today I shot my just finished .36 cal Kinda Sorta Southern Mountain Rifle, her name is Trouble with a capital "T." The reason for that is the gun has been a cussed thing to build mainly due to me choosing an iron hard yet dry and brittle walnut blank for stocking. There were other problems too such as my choosing a small Queen Anne lock and realizing about three-quarters through the build that it was way too small for the gun, I switched to a manton which luckily just covered the old lock mortise. Some additional chiseling and I had it in. So that's two on me, choosing old, hard, brittle wood for a stock (I was enamored of the beautiful curl in the butt area, and the small lock. But for other reasons too this gun was the build from $#*!.  I won't detail any others however, on to today's shoot... Trouble and I's first date.

Trouble shot just where I hoped she would, my first shot was about an inch below the bullseye at 25 yards, sweet! Two more balls in the same general spot, I knew then she was a shooter. On the sixth shot I got the mother of all sizzles coming out the touch hole and smoke galore. A burn off, no detonation. I watched in fascination as the powder burnt out and the smoke flew.

Okay then, I'll try the old drizzle priming powder in behind the ball and shoot it out trick. Three times, each time I get the ol sizzle off, no bang. Looks like I got to go the shop and unbreech Trouble. I remove the barrel form the stock and sandwich it between a couple of copper pieces and crank down the vice handle, Troubles breech plug would not budge, and I'm thinking "surely I put anti-seize compound on that plug before I put it in?" In any case no luck after about twenty minutes and I'm about to wrench off the tang extension, so I stop and sit down to think.

Not my strong suit, sitting still. I take the barrel out of the vice and lay it on the work table, hummm... I squirt some WD-40 in the touch hole and lean the barrel upright hoping the WD-40 will drizzle in and loosen the plug, I leave it and go to supper. When I come back I laid the barrel back on the work table and thought I would use some compressed air (in a can) to blow out some of the WD-40 before trying to remove the plug. I puffed a good shot of canned air into the touch hole.

I hear a weak thud over by the cabinets, just a very quiet impact of some sort. Something had to have flown out the muzzle and I wonder what so I walk over and look around and there on the floor is my pea sized ball. "No way" I think "that little bit of air blew the ball out" Well, it had, the proof was lying on the floor. It took me a while but I finally figured out what had happened.

When that first big 40 grains of 3F black powder sizzle happened the patch was burnt off the ball, but the ball stayed in the barrel because of the powder residue, in effect it was glued in place. The reason I kept getting that sizzle result with the subsequent priming powder attempts was the ignited powder gases escaping past the ball (and out the touch hole) because the patch was gone, so no seal, no pressure build up, no explosion to propel the ball!

My blowing in that WD-40 had luckily dissolved the powder residue holding the ball in place while I was at supper, and my weak canned air shot had blown the now free ball out the muzzle.

You could have blown me over with a feather. I think I will put this one it among the other lessons Trouble has taught me.

Happy shooting y'all

dave
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 03:18:41 PM by PPatch »
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Natureboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
  I had a really hard time with ignition with my custom-built early flintlock.  Lots of FITP, and finally one day the powder burned out through the vent and left me with a dry ball.  My ball puller worked great, though, and the next day I ordered the kit for a Chambers White Lightnin vent liner.  The original vent was a bit behind the center of the pan, so I took it to a machine shop where the guys all love old-timey guns.  It didn't take long at all to install the vent liner, and now I don't even think about FITP.  I think I've had one in the last 100 shots.

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2655
  • NYSSR ―
I don't understand how your 40 Gr's. of fff blew out the vent hole in the first place with nothing more than a patched ball in front of it. Vent too large? Something is going on. ???
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
I don't understand how your 40 Gr's. of fff blew out the vent hole in the first place with nothing more than a patched ball in front of it. Vent too large? Something is going on. ???
Robby

I don't understand that part either Robby, the gun has an unmodified 1/4" Chambers white lighting liner installed though. I believe though that I need thicker patching material, I'm using .015 with a 00 buckshot ball (forget the diameter right now), I need to up that to .022 for a tighter seal.

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
thicker patches good answer.  Thanks for sharing.

Let Trouble sing!
Hold to the Wind

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
I have been shooting black powder firearms for forty years, and have never heard of the powder charge cooking off and not launching the ball. Something is definitely wrong. JMO.
  Discharging stuck balls with compressed air indoors isn't a good idea. Depending on the air pressure used, the ball can have as much velocity as a regular charge.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
When dry-balling with a cap lock, we remove the nipple and dribble 4F into the breech, tapping the barrel to get the powder to flow down behind the ball - then re-seat the ball all the way down to the powder we just put in and touch it off.
We do the same with a flint, but dribble the powder in through the vent. If not enough powder gets behind the ball on the first attempt, usually it will move the ball up the barrel a short distance. This allows more powder the next attempt, but it is important to re-seat the ball.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
I think 00 buck is .350, not sure on that, but never heard of a powder charge burning the patch off
without spittin the ball out. I think you might need some of Daryl's wwwf to go with that thicker patch.

Offline little joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Was the patch a synthetic  or cotton or linnen?

Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
I think 00 buck is .350,

Hornady 000 buck is .350; 00 buck is around .330.

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
I think 00 buck is .350,

Hornady 000 buck is .350; 00 buck is around .330.
Well, there you go, better make that a .050 patch or get some bigger balls.

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
Still, if that ball could be blow out by canned air 3 or 4 grains of 4F should have rolled it out as well.  I don't think we know what all was wrong here yet.  Be interesting to get a follow up report after the next range trip. 

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
I think 00 buck is .350,

Hornady 000 buck is .350; 00 buck is around .330.

Yes - Hornady 000 is undersized and is .350".  I have a box of Hornady 0 and it mic's .320"- which is correct, I think, same as Imperial SSG at .320". SG is supposed to be .30", same as 0 buck.  

"Special" SG is .360", which is what 000 (Triple Ought) is supposed to be according to the old texts. Hornady reduced it's diameter by .001" for reasons not known to me.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 06:30:33 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

doug

  • Guest
it sounds almost as if the powder was in some way partially fouled but if the first 3 shots shot normally, that would not make sense.  Closest comparisons that I can make is when I left a puddle of oil in the breach of a flintlock and it fouled the powder of the first shot so thoroughly, nothing happened.  Trickling in 4F several times had small increasing cook offs as a small bit more fouled powder burned off but eventually I had to take the gun home and use a ball puller.  Nothing came out the muzzle.

   the only other time I had a cook off (sort of) was many many years ago, on a shooting trail, I was leading the trail combined with shooting it myself as well.  Shot was about 10 grains of powder in a 54 flinter and shot while sitting down.  Ten thousand questions coming my way and I left the ramrod in the barrel.  The ramrod broke off just ahead of the brass tip, the ball sort of fused up with the tip of the rod about 1/2 way down the barrel and the gun hissed away out of the breach but nothing out of the muzzle.  First impulse was to throw the gun but I figured if it had not blown up by then, nothing was likely to happen.  We eventually, back in camp, managed to drive the ball back down and shoot it out on the range with a light charge.  The gun was undamaged by the way. 

cheers Doug

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
The ball was too small is all that happened!

00 buck, as has been mentioned, is .330. I needed 000 buck @ .350. In my opinion all is explained by that simple fact.

The first five shots seemed pretty normal and I was hitting in the same area on the target with each shot - except I did notice that the patched ball was pretty easy to ram home and that I could start it with my thumb, it seemed lose on the way down. On the other hand I was just getting a shot in now and then as I was also having to teach a friend of mine from England how to be safe around black powder, load, deal with the double-set triggers and cocking etc. He was shooting my .50 Lancaster. So, one eye on him, the other on my .36 which I had not shot before.

In my mind the sequence on that sixth shot was: I loaded the small patched ball on top of 40 grains of FFFg. Primed and fired... whoosh and hisssss smoke everywhere, spewing out the vent and muzzle. There had been no detonation so I treated it as a hang fire for a couple of minutes. I then did all the things I described in my original post. It was only after the ball was blown out by air that I figured out "for real" what had happened.

The powder flash rapidly burnt the cotton patching material off from around the ball leaving it sitting in the barrel and likely glued in place by the powder residue. Dribbling FFFFg in behind the ball resulted in the same whoosh and hissssing as powder burnt out the vent and around the small ball and out the muzzle. The ball just sat there for reasons all its own. At that point I had an inkling of what was happening.

Later when I had it in the shop I had soaked the back of the barrel in WD-40 in an effort to loosen the breech plug, and went to supper. When I came back I thought for no good reason to try and inject a squirt of air into the vent, just a very brief puff. I heard a faint thud, something had impacted the cabinet in the shop. I investigated and found a 00 buck ball on the floor. At the muzzle of the barrel there was a small darkened remnant of patching material sticking out. The WD-40 loosened, dissolved, the "glue" holding the ball so by the time I returned to the shop and gave the touch hole a shot of air the ball had nothing holding it in the barrel any longer and the little bit of air pushed it merrily out the bore at something less than about 10 fps.

Mystery solved, lessen learned. Buy some 000 buck before shooting Trouble again. There are no gun shops in my areas that have it, I am going to have to mail order it (curses).

dave

Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Glad you got it figured out. Thanks for sharing an interesting experience. In my experience I have never been able to get buckshot to shoot as well as cast balls, but I also have not tried extensive load development with it. I have a 36 that will shoot OK with 000 buckshot, but only if I use a spit patch. Cast balls shoot well with just about any lube through it. Why, I do not know.

As long as you are ordering try getting a few cast balls as well.

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2655
  • NYSSR ―
Too many doggone mysteries in life, Glad you figured this one out PPatch!!
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
When dry-balling with a cap lock, we remove the nipple and dribble 4F into the breech, tapping the barrel to get the powder to flow down behind the ball - then re-seat the ball all the way down to the powder we just put in and touch it off.
We do the same with a flint, but dribble the powder in through the vent. If not enough powder gets behind the ball on the first attempt, usually it will move the ball up the barrel a short distance. This allows more powder the next attempt, but it is important to re-seat the ball.

Very good point daryl, pushing the ball back down after dribbling powder in behind it. I will add that to my little bag of safe shooting rules.  ;)

dave

PS: Pete; I decided to get some .355 cast balls and leave the 000 buck alone since I have to have the lead freighted in anyway.

PPS: Thanks Robby!
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline L. Akers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Glad you picked up on Daryl's point.  For the "newbies" reading this the reason for re-seating the ball is that if the ball is NOT on the powder it is a bore obstruction which could have catastrophic consequences if fired.

Anecdotaly, I had a cook-off one time 30-40 years ago.  Black powder was in short supply at the time and a company tried to market a powder called Golden Powder.  A good friend of mine got ahold of some and was using it in a percussion gun.  It seemed to be pretty weak and was not recommended for flintlocks.  My friend persuaded me to try a shot with it with my flintlock to see what happened.  I loaded 55grs in my .43 cal flintlock and touched it off.  I got a fffffftt from the pan but as I started to lower the gun, fire and ook began to spurt in spurts from the touchhole.  I didn't know whether to throw the gun down and run or hang on.  I chose to hang on and the gun finally farted and blew the ball about ten yards.  Needless to say, Golden Powder Co. failed.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
Glad you picked up on Daryl's point.  For the "newbies" reading this the reason for re-seating the ball is that if the ball is NOT on the powder it is a bore obstruction which could have catastrophic consequences if fired.

Possibly, however with the small amount of powder you normally dribble in through the vent or nipple seat, causing a catastrophic consequence is unlikely, but blowing that charge back out the vent = FFFFFT - is most likely as the pressure may not be great enough - due to the enlarged expansion chamber.  The main problem with not re-seating the ball is the large powder chamber created may allow the dribbled in powder to miss-fire or if is does go off, there is literally such a large chamber, pressure generated is reduced against the ball and the ball not discharged from the muzzle, merely moved a couple or few inches further up the tube creating an even larger "powder chamber".

 Re-seating the ball allows all of the gasses produced (minus what is lost from the vent, of course) to push the ball out the muzzle.  Re-seating the ball also allows the ball/'s patch to clean that part of the bore again as it is pushed back into the breech, allowing for an even easier 'start'.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 01:11:51 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Vomitus

  • Guest
   I never dry ball!  ;D ;D

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Although Leatherbelly possesses immortal-like qualities, dry-balling is a frequent thing on our trail.  So I made a stainless steel rod with a T handle, and set up a clearing area at the beginning of the trail.  I purchased a set of four brass collared ball screws (32 -36, 40 - 45, 50 - 54, and 58 - 62) from TOW and set them in a wooden holder, in a plastic Hornady ball box attached to the tree with the rod.  In a second box is a small set of folding pliers and at least twenty pulled balls.   Nice to know it is getting used.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
I have dry balled three times but fortunately was able to dribble in powder behind the ball each time and blow it out. I have not had to use a ball screw so far... knock on wooden head.  :P I have noticed that each time I dry balled was due to getting distracted, answering someone's question or running my own mouth.

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

10thumbs

  • Guest
  Interesting incident. Reminds me of newly overhauled engines that won't run on fuel, or start with ether.
 Clean bore and clean rings = no compression. But one shot of WD40, and they take right off.

Offline frogwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1044
I have been shooting muzzle loaders for over 50 years, on and off.  I have never had anything remotely like this ever happen.  Dry ball, of course, (I am not like Letherbelly in this respect).  There must be something very wrong with your powder when a puff of air from the air compressor (100 psi?) can blow the ball out of a fouled barrel, and the powder did not.  Black powder normally will build up somewhere in the vicinity of 10,000 psi in a few milliseconds.  I would do some serious checking on that powder.  I don't believe the loose ball thing was the issue.  When I was young and dumb(er) we shot rocks out pf an old rusty ml shotgun.  They came out plenty fast.
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.