Non-bench shooting tips?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I took a bunch of kids out with black powder guns yesterday and put together a little competition.  20 shots total.  We've got a lot of improvement to make.

For the most part I can help the kids work up a load, and sight in their guns - but I am realizing that we could probably use some help with field position accuracy.  I couldn't hit worth a darn shooting offhand.  I've done a little internet snooping and it seems that the most popular shooting advice articles are related to sighting in from a bench. 

What are the most critical tips for off-hand shooting (as well as sitting, kneeling, and prone positions)? 

[WadePatton]

It's about getting as stable as possibly allowed by your position, controlling breathing, controlling the trigger, and holding through the shot-or recoiling the same way each time. 

Part of it is teachable, some of it isn't, and there's nothing better than trigger time-including dry-fire practice.

Double-set triggers are a delight for dry-firing practice-with their "independent nature".

The point with dry-firing practice is for the student to concentrate on achieving good target and sights alignment AT the moment of trigger release and HOLDing that sight picture as long as possible after the trigger breaks (follow-through).  The job for the coach is to watch for any flinching or inconsistencies in position, watching the breath.

Dry firing from bags the sight picture shouldn't change at all in follow through. If it does there's a hold, bag, or flinch problem.  But this isn't about that. 

Or something like that.  I'm not a shooting coach but won some stuff a few times-especially off-hand. 

[CTShooter]

Get a copy of the Army training manual, and read chapter 4 "Fundamentals of Marksmanship",
It covers all the basics.

You can download it.

Also look into the Appleseed program. I'm an instructor with the program, private message me if you have questions.

[snapper]

The kids must be strong enough to hold the gun comfortably.

Also sounds like you need to work on your upper body strength.  You can practice at home in your living room.  Shoulder the rifle and point at something.

You will not be able to hold the rifle rock steady.  The rifle will wavier around, just time your trigger pull as you are passing through the target, learn how to control that and do not over think it.  It is ideal if your sub conscious does your trigger pulling for you.

Fleener

[CTShooter]

A steady off hand shooting position starts at the base, foot placement, and goes up from there.

The biggest mistake I see is people bringing their eye to the sight instead of bringing the sight to the eye.

As soon as you start to bend over you loose your steady position.

It's about technique not strength.

[EC121]

Sight the gun and get comfortable in position with your eyes closed.  Then open them.  You should be looking down the sights.  If not the gun doesn't fit properly.  A strained position creates an unsteady hold.  Once you get the position right, do the same thing at the target.  If you aren't seeing the target, move your feet(don't twist into the target) until you see the sights and target when opening your eyes.

[Standing Bear]

It may help to provide a general location.  There may be an experienced off hand shooter near by.

[Dphariss]

Look at what the positions are then learn to assume them. Offhand is an art. Put a post it note on the wall with a spot on it. Try different offhand stances until you find one that works best. Move your feet around until you find the place where you have the steadiest platform in relation to the target. This is more important than many might think. While in most if not all NMLRA matches a "Schuetzen" stance with the elbow rested on the rib cage is not legal, in casual shooting it can be a great aid to off accuracy. I shoot with the non-shooting shoulder pointed down range though not necessarily right at the target.  Moving the rear foot to the rear will raise the muzzle for example when shooting "across the body". Rifle shooting is not shotgun shooting so a shotgun stance is not the best unless the rifle generates considerable recoil. A shotgun stance is designed to allow free movement of the gun to address moving targets. Try to get a stance that lets the rifle hang at the elevation of the target. Then rotate the body to correct the windage. The natural point of aim must be on the target. This applies to prone, sitting and kneeling to an even greater extent. Having to force the rifle to point at the target will cause off shots.

Dan

[Jerry V Lape]

Most make the mistake of fighting the wobble instead of focusing on the front sight, trigger squeeze and with a flintlock, especially, FOLLOW THROUGH.  Everyone has some degree of wobble around the target and it only gets worse if you use muscle trying to counteract it.  Most of wobble is a parallel motion with both ends of the gun moving about the same amount so it has a relatively small deviation at the target.  It is not like the body is perfectly motionless and the muzzle is swinging side to side.  Focus on the front sight and let the rear sight be secondary with the target blurry.  Trigger squeeze steady and relatively fast but most important practice it in dry firing to achieve a squeeze that doesn't move the sights off target. Because I have short fingers I have a tendency to push the trigger sideways which forces me off target so I have to check trigger hand position carefully each time as an example.   Follow through - means don't drop your sight picture until after the ball has left the barrel.  Many shooters of modern rifles develop bad habits of thinking as soon as the trigger breaks the shot has departed. 

Position is least understood by many shooters.  Develop positions with as little muscle tension as possible.  Do this so the sights want to stay on the target when you are relaxed - you are not forcing them there by muscles.  When the trigger goes and things start happening with the firing sequence there is an involuntary release of the muscle tension which occurs.  If you are holding to the target with tension then the relaxation will pull you off the target.  This is another aspect of development which you can work on while dry firing.  Dry firing is also beneficial to fight flinching habits.   

[Daryl]

I read once-a-pon-a-time, that holding the forend cradled in the left hand (right handed) and pointing your forefinger straight down the entry pipe or down the forend, would, with practice, remove most or at least much of the horizontal swing and instead make the elevation most of the problem. I practiced this hold and use it automatically. Some times I make good offhand shots, mostly with the 14 bore.
I also find this rifle feels like it kicks a bit less, if I hang my elbow a bit, when seems to thicken up the pectoral and shoulder muscle - thus less plain ensues with each shot. (naw- really, it doesn't hurt enough to bother



As far as bench shooting goes, both feet flat on the floor or ground. Sitting cocked at an angle to the bench, not straight down the range.  Hold the forend in your off hand, resting the back of that hand on the front bag. This will give you as close to an offhand ZERO as you can get shooting from a rest. It is exactly the same in most of my guns.

I don't have any pictures of shooting a ML from the bench. SRY!  About 50% of bench accuracy, is good, repeatable technique.

[Candle Snuffer]

I don't have very many pictures of myself shooting offhand, and I can't say if this is a good example or not but it works for me. I expect I tuck-in more then most when it comes to addressing the target.

[Ky-Flinter]

All good advice above, but Black Jaque did say he was teaching a bunch of kids.  When I was teaching my son and a bunch of young Boy Scouts to shoot, I took some heavy card stock and cut out a big front and rear sight, like 6 inches wide, so I could demonstrate sight alignment.  It helped.

-Ron

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I am in Central Wisconsin.  Near Wis. Rapids. 

Dry-Firing:  This sounds like a really good idea since the boys can do it at home on their own time.  Focus on follow-through, sight picture, anything else?  Does this damage the nipple on a percussion gun?

Breath Control:  I've hear this term but don't know if I really know what it is.  What I do when I approach the line is I take two DEEP breaths, followed by a 3rd big breath and let it out half-way, as I'm shouldering the gun.  Hold my breath through the shot.

Due to the limited nature of money gun-fit is what we will have to work around.  I have a good variety of guns and the kids are a variety of sizes so we just have to do our best.  Is this something that is CRITICAL?  Or can minor fit-problems be worked around?

I will download the military manual.  Anything to help me search it up?  Just "Army Training Manual"?

[Standing Bear]

Breath Control:  I've hear this term but don't know if I really know what it is.  What I do when I approach the line is I take two DEEP breaths, followed by a 3rd big breath and let it out half-way, as I'm shouldering the gun.  Hold my breath through the shot.

Your eyes are running out of O2 before you get on target. You only have 8-10 seconds before visual acuity begins to decrease.  Get in position, mount the rifle, be sure your position puts the sights on target without twisting. Now breath a couple of times watching the sight rise above the target then fall thru the target as you exhale. On 3rd breath exhale slowly until the front sight is on target and start your trigger squeeze/sight picture.

Continue aiming thru the shot and register where the sight was at recoil and where the sight was after recoil.
TC

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Great tip on the Army Field Manual.  Printing Pages 4-12 through 4-24 right now.  Will read then disseminate to the "troops" 

[smylee grouch]

Some people can't bend that non firing hand back enough to hold tucked in like that. My left wrist won,t go that far back so I'm one to use the forarm betwix the thumb and four fingers. I see some with that hand bent all the way, 90 degrees to the outside. I envey them for that. Oh to be young again.

[CTShooter]

Breath control is pausing your breathing for the 3-5 seconds it takes to squeeze the trigger.

Breath normally when shooting, instictive shooting is all about being comfortable and relaxed. Let it happen naturally.

Don't get onto a routine about counting breaths it takes your focus away from the front sight where it should be, and causes some "panic trigger" where the shooter gets caught up in being in the 3rd breath and decides the trigger needs to be squeezed because that is the routine, not because the shooter has a proper sight picture and is ready to shoot.

[hudson]

For those wanting to dry fire with out the benefit of set triggers, a peace soft tubing placed on the nipple works well, cut it a bit long.

[Standing Bear]

2nd 3rd 5th breath.  Don't count, settle in BEFORE HOLDING THE EXHALE.   Not a problem.  Also helps lower the heart rate.  The routine becomes a habit. Starting the breath hold early is a bad habit.

[oldtravler61]

All very good advice. Three things that help. One a gun that FITS YOU.  Two a crisp light trigger, that you like. Three practise the dry fire an sight picture hold. If you can't hold your gun steady that can be a real problem An practice , practice

[Daryl]

I don't have very many pictures of myself shooting offhand, and I can't say if this is a good example or not but it works for me. I expect I tuck-in more then most when it comes to addressing the target.

This is the sort-of typical "Standing Position", used in today's Olympic-style starting with the old time Schutzen shooting aka Swiss in the 12700's through 1800's and to Harry Pope and the boys around the turn of the 20th century.

 In some OFFHAND (off the hands) matches, body resting is not allowed. Fro some of us, having to bend the back is not possible to hold the "Standing Position" properly.

If you hunt with your muzzleloading rifle, you will probably use or should use the offhand position without body rest.

[Candle Snuffer]

Here's another picture of me shooting offhand, this time with a flintlock. I don't tuck-in quite as much when shooting my flintlocks, never quite figured that one out, but again it seems to work for me. I do believe these are the only two offhand shooting pictures I have of myself.

Daryl, I like the idea of being in the same company as Harry Pope and the boys. I like that.

[Daryl]

  - wouldn't we all.

Even that slight backward lean is too much for the back. However, the backward lean on discharge doesn't hurt - figure THAT out!

[Candle Snuffer]

Controlled recoil, notice Daryl's left hand forefinger,,, still in the same place where it started before the shot. Outstanding control.

[LH]

http://www.issa-schuetzen.org/off-hand-rifle-shooting.html