Colerain barrels

[Bentflint]

Anybody know the breech plug depth in Colerain barrels. The barrel in question is 16 gauge 46" octagon to round fowler.

Bruce Everhart

[tuffy]

I have a 20 ga. 44" octagon to round swamped fowler Colrain and the breechplug depth on it is 16.5mm.

[Acer Saccharum]

I check the depth to shoulder, and the length of the plug to make sure they coincide. I never thought that there would be an exact depth from barrel to barrel. I doubt that there is, unless they CNC the counterbore and threading.

Acer

[billd]

Just multiply MM by .03937.  Equals inches.  16.5mm x .03937 = .649XXX

Bill

[T*O*F]

I check the depth to shoulder, and the length of the plug to make sure they coincide. I never thought that there would be an exact depth from barrel to barrel.

Unless you are using a pre-inlet kit, this is also the time to adjust your breechplug depth to make your lock and touch-hole come out where you want them, instead of just relying on the factory threading.

Some don't care, but I like to have the fence even with the back of the barrel.  This is the time to do that.

[Acer Saccharum]

Just multiply MM by .03937.  Equals inches.  16.5mm x .03937 = .649XXX

Bill

This is exactly what I use, Bill. I also convert inches to mm with the same number. Makes it easy, with but one number to remember.

Inches DIVIDED by .03937 equals MM.

and

MM TIMES .03937 equals inches.

If I have several conversions to make, I put the .03937 into the calculator memory, and recall it when needed.

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave, you hit the nail on the head with breech prep BEFORE you build the gun.

[Stophel]

The ones I get are usually right close to 9/16".  I don't know what in the h__l you people are talking about... "mm"?  ".03937"? 

[JCKelly]

25.4 is an easier number to remember.

There are exactly 25.4 millimeters in an inch.

"exactly" because some time ago that conversion was standardized internationally.

[E.vonAschwege]

I really like that barrel!  I'm using it in the NE fowler I've got in the works.  Really lightweight and thin barrel wall for a production barrel.  Rayl and others will make them thinner, but the Colerain pattern is pretty good, with a slightly heavier breech section than others.  I always check to make sure the breech shoulders against the bore, and in my barrel it was 9/16" deep if I recall correctly.  I doubt they're all exactly the same though, so remove it on your barrel and check.  Now back to my academics...
-Eric

[billd]

I do CAD/CAM work, CNC programming and quoting for a machine shop. A lot of prints I work with are metric and I have to convert them.  Using .03937 takes me out to 5 decumal places, which is where I have to work.   25.4 is just as simple but I'm used to doing it the other way.

Bill

[David Rase]

I don't remember how deep my 16g Tulle barrel from Colrain was breeched but I do know I machined it back to 1/2".  It was some where between 9/16" and 5/8" originally.
DMR

[Bentflint]

Thanks everybody...It's amazing how much you can learn from one simple question on this board.

Eric, I thought that this contour would be good from looking at the specs.  I think it weighs in at 3.7 lbs. That's sweet for a 46" barrel.Thanks for your input.

David, wanting .5" is why I ask in the first place. Seams like every barrel I have used in the past several years (with the exception of Getz) was closer to 9/16 or more.  I shorten them to .5" for lock placement as well.

Bruce Everhart

[Blacksmoke]

I agree with Dave--I like the fence of the lock back against the recoil shoulder instead of part way down the barrel. It gives better esthetics's to the overall lock and wrist area of the gun.  I've seen some lock fences that are as much 1/2" away from the end of the barrel.  Bad bad bad  Why not make a longer breech plug and install longer threads in the barrel with a counter bore in the plug. Then when you install the vent it will go through both the side of the barrel and the plug into the counter bore. This will give you a much stronger breech , it will look better and because the vent hole will be at the back of the breech it will produce a much faster ignition. Also the inside breech shoulder willnot be interupted.  Here is a picture of one of my hand made breech plugs.  This is the way I do it.   Hugh Toenjes  

[chuck-ia]

I have a 16 ga. 38" colerain barrel, mine measures .550 or darn close to 9/16", the way it looks on mine there is no shoulder in the barrel for the breech plug face to seat against, just threads and bore, don't know if this is a good thing or not? A 20 ga. might have a real thin shoulder? chuck-ia

[Blacksmoke]

Chuck,  The absence of an inside shoulder should not hurt anything as long as the end of the male threads snug up against the run out of the female threads in the bore and the outside shoulder of the breech plug comes up against the end of the barrel at the same time. I've breeched a number if barrels this way with no problem. The main problems would be an escapement of gases back through the threads upon discharge of the gun and a place for corrosive salts to do their thing.  Hope that helps.  Hugh Toenjes

[Eric Kettenburg]

I've had a pretty good number of German rifles here for work with breeches EXACTLY as Hugh Toenjes has pictured and described above, very long threads 3/4" to 1" and the vent right through the side into a bore-sized counterbore.  Every one of them carried a rounded or spherical 'floor' to the counterbore and most of them had gold vent liners that only were threaded through the barrel wall, not the plug.  This way, one could remove the plug w/o destroying the liner.  Seems like a really neat and effective way to breech a barrel and permit the pan fence to line up with the rear of the barrel.

[Don Getz]

Wow, I didn't realize how much I missed this place.   I think lock placement is judged at Dixon's.....if the fence isn't even
with the breech end of the barrel you are deducted points, or something like that.  I always disagreed with this theory.
If you say this is the way the old ones were done, you are wrong.   All you have to do is page thru the RCA books and
check it out.   Personally, I don't like to cut a notch or groove into the front of the breech plug.....just one more place that
becomes hard to clean.  I usually check the depth of the breech plug, then add 1/2 of the diameter of the touch hole liner
to that measurement and use that as the center of the touch hole, and I don't think moving the  lock 1/8" or 1/4" will affect the architecture of the gun.   Aren't you glad I'm back.................Don

[Acer Saccharum]

Don, those are my sediments exactly. Fence placement is a modern concern. look at originals and you'll see them all over the map.

Points off? hmmmm. I'll be the judge on that. 

Acer

Speaking of Dixon's...... I can feel the excitement building.

[Blacksmoke]

Eric--Thanks for the concurrence on the subject of counter bored breech plugs. Didn't you post an article on your web site about an early German Jeager rifle that exampled the counter bored breech?  To me this is the strongest type of breeching one can do.  It scares the h@#L out of me when I see some of these 1/2" or less breech plug threads. Yes Don -( welcome back!)  I know what the old ones look like and you are right they are all over the map in terms of breech plug length and fence placement. However if you have ever experienced a breech failure or a vent failure because of insufficient threads whilst the gun was in your hands--you will not make that mistake again!! If you are still alive that is!? Personally I would rather error on the side of safety then be 100% historically accurate and compromise safty tolerance.  We as makers have a responsibility to our customers which includes a liability factor. And I pray to God that that factor never comes into play for any of us!!

Eric- back to you. On that German rifle with the counter bored breech. Wasn't the barrel measurement at the breech at least 1 1/4"? This would give you a fairly thick wall thickness which would inturn give enough threads to install that liner only in the barrel wall if the plug dia. was not too large.   Gentlemen these are just my thoughts and the way I do things.      Hugh Toenjes

[Don Getz]

Hugh....one other comment on the matter of lock placement....almost all of those old kentuckies "did not" have touchhole
liners, therefore, if they did build them like I like to do, they would have drilled the hole right in front of the plug face,
and, as a result the lock would automatically be at least an 1/8" more toward the breech end of the barrel.  On the other
hand, I have seen old plugs with the notch or groove in the front edge....so,  will leave it up to the builder, whatever tickles your fancy.   Hugh, I take it that you have seen one come apart this way?  I never have seen this, not saying it
can't happen, but it would have to be an extremely rare event.   I've been going to Friendship for over 30 years, and
have been shooting muzzleloaders longer than that, and, to be truthful, have never heard of it happening......Don

[P.W.Berkuta]

Hugh, do you grind back the rifling at the junction of the breech plug and the barrel so that the rifling and plug are a smooth transition so as not to catch a cleaning patch???

I agree with Dave--I like the fence of the lock back against the recoil shoulder instead of part way down the barrel. It gives better esthetics's to the overall lock and wrist area of the gun.  I've seen some lock fences that are as much 1/2" away from the end of the barrel.  Bad bad bad  Why not make a longer breech plug and install longer threads in the barrel with a counter bore in the plug. Then when you install the vent it will go through both the side of the barrel and the plug into the counter bore. This will give you a much stronger breech , it will look better and because the vent hole will be at the back of the breech it will produce a much faster ignition. Also the inside breech shoulder willnot be interupted.  Here is a picture of one of my hand made breech plugs.  This is the way I do it.   Hugh Toenjes  

[Blacksmoke]

P. W. Berkuta,   Actually the counter bore in the breech plug has  a slightly smaller mouth than the size of the barrel bore . Then the jag with the cleaning patch will only bump up against the breech plug and the patch will remain on the jag. To clean the counter bore I use a "ball puller" with a piece of cloth wrapped on it to go inside of the concave portion of the plug. You can also use a small "bore brush" attached to your cleaning rod to go inside the plug.  Hope this answers your question.    Hugh Toenjes

[Blacksmoke]

Don,    I have only witnessed  one breech failure in my 37 yrs. of muzzle loading. However it was not a breech plug that failed but rather a vent that blew out side ways. It blew the lock clean out of the mortise and we never found the liner. I had the job of repairing the gun and found that the guy who made it did not install the touchhole liner properly. He had drilled the liner hole through the side of the barrel with the center point being at the line of the inside shoulder. This meant that one side of the liner had only 2 threads holding it while the other side had 5. A notch had been filed on one side the face of the breech plug to allow powder to get into the liner. Fortunately no one was hurt but it scared the @#$%^& out of us when it let go!!  My philosophy is "more threads are better" in the breechplug and the touch hole liner!!    Hugh Toenjes

[Don Getz]

Hugh....glad you explained why it happened, but you only explained part of it.    Someone told him the fence of the lock
should be even with the breech end of the barrel, which created this bad situation.   I'm going to chalk this up as one win for doing it my way.........Don