New England Half Stock Target Rifle-seeking information

[Fauch125]

I'm looking for information regarding a .45 caliber half stock percussion target rifle, with a Worcester County style trigger guard and fish belly stock. Horn nose cap and ramrod tip, hooked breach, double set triggers, false muzzle, hooded pin front sight, buckhorn elevator mid sight (possibly a later addition), and the stud remains for a lollipop folding peep rear sight. 9.5 lbs. wood under rib. Only writing on the entire gun is on the backlock plate- N.B&H.Weed.
     Found the lockplate maker in online American gunsmith database, known for flintlocks, no information on origin. New member, not sure how to post photos on the forum.

[JV Puleo]

It is very unlikely that the name on the lock has anything to do with the maker. Virtually all locks were imported and the names found on them are usually either the foreign maker (with British-made examples) or the hardware dealer that imported them  which is common with both British and Belgian-made examples. Back-action locks came along fairly late, albeit before the Civil War and its probably that most were Belgian-made although I know of no way to actually confirm this.

Many New England guns are unsigned and my own impression, based on 40 years of looking at them, is that it is virtually impossible to attribute them in any reasonable way if they are unsigned.

All of the on-line sources, and most of the printed sources, simply repeat previous work including all of the mistakes made over the past 100 years, going back to Charles Winthrop Sawyer so I'd be very wary of placing too much credence in them.

[Fauch125]

Thank you for the information

[The Rambling Historian]

N. B. & H. Weed appear in records in Savannah, Georgia in the 1830s into at least the 1850s for various hardware goods, so it is pretty safe to assume they were simply the merchants who imported and sold the lock.

[Fauch125]

Thank you, great info

[vtbuck223]

I hope that you will make an effort to post pictures...it would be great to see what you have. Seems like it would be an anomaly to have a Southern retailed lock on a New England target rifle. As I have begun to be more interested in rifles made in my own home state from this era...I have come to really appreciate the workmanship on these often amazingly accurate rifles.

[JV Puleo]

I agree and it would be equally unusual to find a NE style trigger guard on a Southern rifle. Pictures would be a big help, as I'm unclear as to what a "Worcester County" trigger guard is. I have about 14 NE rifles and they feature perhaps ten or a dozen different trigger guards. But, as the locks weren't made here and I suspect much of the brass work was imported as well (at least in NE) it is entirely possible that some of it ended up in markets far from the original projected destination... or that they were re-used from an earlier gun.

[Fauch125]

hope this works...
http://s418.photobucket.com/user/Fauch125/library/Mobile%20Uploads

[vtbuck223]

Thanks for taking the time to post the pics. I wonder if the lock might be a replacement? The trigger guard and wooden under rib are certainly New England characteristics....but they seem to be far less common as you move into this era of target rifles. A wood under rib would weigh less...which was a consideration in some target shooting...however, if that was a big concern on this rifle it seems as though the maker could have saved some weight by turning the false muzzle. As you mentioned...you can see the dove tail for a previous sight....unlikely but there might be a makers mark under the new sight? On a couple target rifles that I have owned...the barrel maker was stamped in that area...underneath a sight.  Thanks again for posting...it is a very interesting rifle...and I bet it was a real tack driver back in it's day.

[Fauch125]

Lock could definitely be a replacement. The hammer has been modified, either a replacement itself or to adapt the lock. Lock mortise has some rough cuts that might be modification for a replacement (or to relive some binding on the original?). Will see if I can look under the sight tonight. Any thoughts on the type of sight that went on the post behind the tang?  I'm thinking lollipop peep of some sort. Post is not broken or cut, so I'm thinking some king of removable one? 
    Also wondering if there a way to tell if this is set up for patched roundball or conical ammo.

[Mike Brooks]

 

Also wondering if there a way to tell if this is set up for patched roundball or conical ammo.

Paper patched slug I imagine.

[Bob Roller]

Also wondering if there a way to tell if this is set up for patched roundball or conical ammo.

Paper patched slug I imagine.

Run a patched rod into the barrel down to the breech. You can get an idea as to twist. It may be a gain twist
Show us a picture if possible.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Sorry I overlooked the pictures. At a guess,I'd say it's a round ball rifle or maybe a short bullet of 1.5 calibers in length. The drum an nipple would be used for such an arrangement. If if were for a heavy bullet it would probably have a bolster breech.

Bob Roller

[Fauch125]

Barrel minus the false muzzle is 34.5" long. 8 square bottom lands and grooves, not particularly deep, less than, say, an original 1841 Mississippi. Does not make a complete half turn in 34.5 inches (almost). Perhaps 1:72? (Which would be the same as a Mississippi). Don't have a small enough bore light myself, when I checked with a friends light, I could tell the bore was in good condition, but did not strike me as obviously gain twist (would like to check again when I get a chance).
      Looked under the mid sight, no info on the barrel. Considering the Good inletting for the trigger guard and butt plate, thinking the lock is a replacement. Some of the screws, like the lock play screw, is definitely a replacement.

[Mike Brooks]

Barrel minus the false muzzle is 34.5" long. 8 square bottom lands and grooves, not particularly deep, less than, say, an original 1841 Mississippi. Does not make a complete half turn in 34.5 inches (almost). Perhaps 1:72? (Which would be the same as a Mississippi). Don't have a small enough bore light myself, when I checked with a friends light, I could tell the bore was in good condition, but did not strike me as obviously gain twist (would like to check again when I get a chance).
      Looked under the mid sight, no info on the barrel. Considering the Good inletting for the trigger guard and butt plate, thinking the lock is a replacement. Some of the screws, like the lock play screw, is definitely a replacement.

At 1 in 72 it would be a RB gun.

[Uncle Miltie]

Nice rifle  I believe the lock may be a replacement.  The patent (false) muzzle was probably done by an old Friendship shooter who really didn't know why false muzzles were made in the first place.  Many think the purpose is to prevent crown wear, but the real reason for them is to facilitate loading a conical projectile with the use of a guide starter.