Author Topic: Side by Side Rifle  (Read 10441 times)

Ric27

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Side by Side Rifle
« on: April 28, 2016, 09:55:54 PM »
Hello Gents,
I have started some research on side by side rifle of the flintlock era. This is not a conceptual pipe dream. I have the barrels inlet into the stock and a note indicating that these parts were to be built out in the style of  the C Beck, Dbl Rifle # 109 on page 263 of Kindigs TKR. I acquired the said parts in a inventory I bought a couple of years ago. Nosing around I found photos of a Bedford style rifle posted on this site that was a sxs percussion and had double tangs. The barrels I have longish tangs on the breach plugs.

I approached a man I know that has built many swivel breach guns and his first suggestion was to set up a hooked breach and that was that. I had to agree that it does sound much more elegant and practical but after seeing the Bedford rifle with the double tangs i was wondering if their are other examples of that type of arrangement. Unfortunately there is now way to tell about the C Beck rifle in the Kindig book by looking at the photos.

So is there any info out there on this topic???
Thanks
Ric

Offline tallbear

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2016, 10:19:18 PM »
Rick

There are several Bedford side by sides by different makers pictured in one of Whiskers' books.They all appear to have double tangs.

Mitch
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 10:20:35 PM by tallbear »

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2016, 10:32:02 PM »
Also several in Calvin Hetrick's book on Bedford Co. gunmakers
Dave Kanger

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Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2016, 11:04:19 PM »
Hi Ric,

The C. Beck s x s has two tangs that are tapered like willow leafs and completely parallel to each other and the bbls. The locks are not heavily angled to be "toed in" at the tails, so there is a pronounced shoulder as the lock panels meet the wrist.

Some s x s rifles have separate tangs that gracefully bend toward each other with a “pigeon toed” look (which I think is classy), but to do the Beck justice, the separate tangs should be parallel and willow leaf shaped.

For me, s x s American long rifles are best done with separate tangs and full stocks. The double hooked breech with one tang looks too "double barreled shotgun” for me, and I would expect to see that coupled with a rounded underside to the stock, a tapered half stock forearm, and no grip rail on the trigger guard. There certainly is a continuum of s x s American double rifles and combination guns (mostly original percussions), from full blown Kentucky rifle style (like the C Beck) to quite modern configurations with full round barrels, flat toes and butts, tapered short for ends, no grip rails, and Winchester type elevating rear sights, but at that end of the spectrum, I can’t call them Kentucky of American long rifles.

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Ric27

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2016, 11:06:41 PM »
Has anyone know of any other photos of the C Beck sxs rifle other than the ones in the Kindig book? Or any other dbl rifles of that early 19th century.

Ric27

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2016, 11:15:20 PM »
Thank you Bill. I am thankful to hear this. This means that I can use my longrifle know how to make these rifles and not have to learn some serious new skills and spend ten grand on some new machinery to make a breach block.

I know the C Beck gun had one smooth barrel and just a rear site on the rifle barrel, but was the normal method to put front and rear sights on both barrels if rifled?


Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2016, 11:31:49 PM »
Kindig’s C beck has rifle sights on both the smooth right and rifled left barrels. I don’t think I have seen a full stocked octagonal barrrel s x s ALR without a set of sites on each barrel.
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2016, 11:59:41 PM »
The Jacob Briegle Or Briggle, as Whisker spells it in his book, has two tangs, two front sights and two rear sights. The barrels are not joined.
 It resides in my safe

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2016, 12:42:00 AM »
The Jacob Briegle Or Briggle, as Whisker spells it in his book, has two tangs, two front sights and two rear sights. The barrels are not joined.
 It resides in my safe

 Don, Let me be the first to ask...Are some Pictures on it possible?

  Thanks, Tim

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2016, 12:46:59 AM »
I could email you some pictures
  Not smart enough to post pictures on this site. Both of my Briegles are shown in Whiskers Bedford book

Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2016, 12:59:45 AM »
Hi Don, I would really like to see photos, too, as I am studying Kentucky double rifles in detail for eventual publication. Bedford was a center of s x s rifle making. Maybe I could stop by when I am in the neighborhood
and study it first hand!

Bill Paton, Anchorage, Alaska ( a different neighborhood!)
wapaton.sr@gmail.com
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline smart dog

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2016, 01:04:45 AM »
Hi Ric,
I urge you to pay attention to whatever information Bill Paton provides.  I suspect he knows more about double barreled American long rifles than anybody alive.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline davebozell

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2016, 03:08:58 AM »
Don,  If you would like to email me the pictures, I would be glad to post them for you.

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2016, 03:49:24 AM »
Dave
 Thank you
 I'll have to dig it out of the safe and take some pictures Might take a day or two
Don

Ric27

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2016, 03:52:58 AM »
I hope we can see those photos here. This project is becoming more doable all the time. barres not connected and sights on both barrels makes it all much more straight forward.

The barrels are tapered from abort .940 at breech to 800 @ the muzzle so there will be some Flair on the tail of the lock. But I guess I could adjust the bolster to compensate for that.

Again, are there any known photos of the C Beck dbl rifle other than in the Kindig book? .

Offline Old Ford2

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2016, 01:47:39 PM »
I am really looking forward to seeing Don's pictures, and learning more of this venture.
Thanks to all!
Fred
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Let the Lord pick the good from the bad!

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2016, 04:37:12 PM »
Don,  If you would like to email me the pictures, I would be glad to post them for you.

 Beat me to it, Thanks Dave and Don for the extra work.

    Tim

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2016, 05:08:05 PM »
Ric,
Your project is definitely doable.  I decided to go with 13/16ths .40 cal. barrels on mine with small Manton flint locks.  I still haven't decided which type of tangs to use.  Hooked ones can easily be made from large screws.  Still, I saw a neat Bedford with twin tangs that had been forged and curved inward so that when installed, they formed a heart.  There are lots of possibilities.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Ric27

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2016, 07:31:34 PM »
The barrels I have are 58 cal. So it is a big game rifle. I'm thinking maybe for the Elk that they are reintroducing to Tennessee.. I like the idea of the doing something with the tangs to compliment the architecture. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2016, 07:51:04 PM »
I started to build a DR a long time ago - in the late 70's actually. Got my hooked breeches and tang made or partially. I was not thinking any 'school' though - too long ago - have no idea where those 'parts' are now. I cannot envision double tangs or dual sights, although I'm sure that some of the percussion Colt DR's had dual sights.
Some also had filed muzzles to help the guns regulate.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline davebozell

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2016, 11:19:23 PM »
Here are Don's pictures:












Offline T*O*F

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2016, 11:46:15 PM »
Quote
Here are Don's pictures:
Questions:
1.  Are the tang screws just wood screws into the stock?
2.  One set of triggers......do the sear bars overlap or are they linked with a tube?
3.  Can both barrels be fired at once if both are cocked?
4.  Do both locks have flies?
5.  Is the trigger plate captured by the guard, wood screws, or tapered and fit into a mortise?
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline tallbear

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2016, 12:22:53 AM »
Thank you for the pictures Don.Very nice  to see this great gun in color!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mitch
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 12:23:52 AM by tallbear »

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2016, 12:33:48 AM »
Quote
Here are Don's pictures:
Questions:
1.  Are the tang screws just wood screws into the stock? yes
2.  One set of triggers......do the sear bars overlap or are they linked with a tube? overlap
3.  Can both barrels be fired at once if both are cocked? Don'tknpw but think so
4.  Do both locks have flies? no flysand no half cock so none needed
5.  Is the trigger plate captured by the guard, wood screws, or tapered and fit into a mortise?
two wood screws

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Side by Side Rifle
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2016, 12:42:56 AM »
If Dave is still willing to post, I'll try to take some pictures ofthe swivel breech if anyone is interested