Author Topic: Wood Grading ?? (Read 9815 times)

Scota4570 · « **on:** April 29, 2016, 10:50:59 PM »

I got taken by a (the) major parts kit supplier. I paid $230 for a half stock maple. The wood ordered is supposed to be grade 4. I got no better than grade 2. It is about 60% tight curl, some spotty curl in the voids and is slab sawn. The bottom half of the butstock has no curl at all.

Sooooooo.......... I could send it back, try for another pig in the poke, and wait for them to get it cut. That will cost for shipping with no guarantees. I asked them if they would E-mail photos of prospective stocks, they refused.

How do I protect myself from this kind of nonsense in the future?

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #1 on:** April 29, 2016, 11:18:52 PM »

Send it all back and go elsewhere.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 29, 2016, 11:25:28 PM »

It's a pre-carve. I was trying to avoid building from a board this time. I can call Pecatonica they may supply these to the other guys.

Added later, Pecatonica does not cut these stocks for the other guys. I have dealt with Pecatonica in the past with complete satisfaction.

Oh well, maybe easier to wash the disappointment down with a couple of frosty ones and get to work.

"Send it all back and go elsewhere." Mike, your right of course, in the future that is what I'll do, go elsewhere. They lost my business. For now the shipping costs will exceed the value of my wood grading dispute.

moleeyes36 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2016, 12:14:52 AM »

I'm with Mike on this one. The shipping costs may exceed the the value of the wood grading dispute, but if you spend the time and effort to build that rifle with a piece of wood that is not up to what you have a right to expect, you'll most likely be kicking yourself for a long time. I'd pack up the whole kit and kaboodle and send it back for a full refund. There are a lot of good suppliers, Pecatonica, Tip Curtis, Jim Chambers, and many more that are nicer to deal with and deliver good products.

I always remember what a builder told me years ago, "There are two kinds of wood, pretty stocks and fire wood".

Mole Eyes

eddillon · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2016, 12:30:11 AM »

Hi 4570,
It might be a good idea to post photos of the stock in question. I bet there folks who would like to put their grade estmate on it. Grading wood can be very subjective. Take from a guy who was in the business of selling blanks to major US firearms manufacturers. If it is not what it was advertised to be, send it back. I have had to "eat" walnut blanks.

bama · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2016, 12:41:10 AM »

If you are not happy - send it back. The company should have no problem with refunding your money. Sure will lose the shipping cost but I would rather do that than work on a piece of wood I was not happy with.

The big problem is everybody wants a great piece of wood and if you are paying extra you should get it. Now my opinion of a great piece of wood and your opinion will be completely different. Your supplier may be of the opinion that what you got was a great piece of wood, you do not see it that way so - send it back.

This is why I try to never buy a piece of wood I do not personally look at. I know that this is not an easy thing to do for some people but it is the only way to really get what you want. That is why I spend so much time looking at stock blanks and I try to buy as many as I can afford every year even if I don't have a project in mind for the stock.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2016, 01:13:35 AM »

Great input everyone.

I just reviewed my packing slip, it was $270, not $230.

In the future I'll will only deal with outfits that will send a picture or I will pick the wood in person.

The trouble with the buy in person idea is that there are no dealers near me. Here in central California people who do any hands on crafts are few and far between. There is one wood monger locally but they are architectural woods. They don't know about gun stocks. The only guy who did has retired, Western Gunstock. I picked the last of his blanks about a year ago, I bought about about 10. They are for modern rifles though. Driving half way across the county for a stock does not add up.

I will be driving from California to Tulsa soon. Any good places to shop wood or MLs along route 40?

Thanks.

Scot

eddillon · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2016, 01:16:41 AM »

Quote from: bama on April 30, 2016, 12:41:10 AM

This is why I try to never buy a piece of wood I do not personally look at. I know that this is not an easy thing to do for some people but it is the only way to really get what you want. That is why I spend so much time looking at stock blanks and I try to buy as many as I can afford every year even if I don't have a project in mind for the stock.

Or, at least good clear photos showing the grain and layout. Wet down with alcohol is the way I used to make photos to send to customers. I did not offer this service to the manufacturers because they bought hundreds at a time.

eddillon · « **Reply #8 on:** April 30, 2016, 01:19:21 AM »

4570,
Get in touch with Cliff Witt in Porterville, CA.

WKevinD · « **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2016, 03:24:35 AM »

I was taken by a major supplier/ friend a few weeks back and posted a rant. It was removed by the moderators(rightly so). They were right I was ranting but I had no other outlet.
I have grown complacent in the fact that I have never been ripped off by anyone in this hobby/ obsession I have grown to trust and refuse to give that up. I just hate to be proved wrong.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2016, 03:33:01 AM »

Grade 4 Maple (M4) has exceptional tight even curl. Unusually figured stocks are scarce, and not always available. Place your order in advance of your needs. If you require immediate delivery, please allow us to substitute M3, or specify a second choice.

What they sent was not even close. I'll try to post pictures soon. Too bad I can not host pictures on this site. I don't have an account to photobucket etc.

There is another issue, I noticed that the grain the the wrist is "slash grained". That is a deal breaker. I will not waste my time on a stock destined to break through the wrist.

I have nearly convinced myself to pack it all up and send it all back. It is a big disappointment. I was looking for a project to do during a recovery period from a surgery I expect to do soon.

rich pierce · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2016, 03:39:36 AM »

That's a lot of money for a halfstock. Guess you're paying for the precarve. There's plenty of good wood out there especially halfstock.

sqrldog · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2016, 03:39:56 AM »

I have purchased blanks through Nathan Cox at Harrison Gunstocks for years he always emails pics of three or four blanks that are of the quality, dimensions, grain flow in the wrist and have the grade of curl and density I am looking for. Always been satisfied with the wood he sends and for that matter price also. You might want to give them a try next time. Tim

Carl Young · « **Reply #13 on:** April 30, 2016, 04:12:42 AM »

I think we all sympathize with your disappointment, at least I do. I'm surprised that contacting the seller about resolving your dissatisfaction hasn't been suggested yet. If my guess is right as to their identity, they have a website with an toll-free number and an email address...maybe Dave (not sure he is still there, been years since I ordered from them) or whoever will want to keep you as a satisfied customer? in a previous life I practiced law, and we wouldn't consider taking a case unless the buyer had at a minimum asked for resolution from the seller. It sounds as though you have nothing additional to lose by stating your case and asking for the resolution you want.

I wish you the best of luck in obtaining satisfaction, and on your build.

Regards,
Carl

Scota4570 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 30, 2016, 05:55:50 AM »

https://04292016a.shutterfly.com/pictures#n_5

Regardless of the pretty factor of the wood I would like to push forward. I could spend a vast amount of time satisfying my desire for perfection. Sometime I let my perfectionist tendencies hold me back.

However I am concerned about the cross grain in the wrist. Opinion on this please.

Oh, yes, the vendor will take it back. I will be out $30 each way for shipping. By the time I paid for shipping I would be trading for a lesser grade stock, whatever that is, Yikes! They don't have any more, "nice ones", to replace it with. It would be back ordered. Another vendor's pre-carves, use a different but plate and lock. They would have to cut it too, nothing on hand. So, I am back to using one of my big old chunks of wood I already have. I wanted to streamline this project.

For sure next time I get the itch to make something I will be talking to Kibler, Chambers or Curtice

Thanks all

Pictures added by Moderator.

FlintFan · « **Reply #15 on:** April 30, 2016, 06:54:03 AM »

This is a perfect example of how subjective wood grading is. I could see how that stock could be graded as a 4 (which is done by the manufacturer of the stock, not the retailer). In my experience pre-carves generally don't have the same grading scale as you find on blanks. Very few stock carvers will risk destroying a high grade blank on their duplicator, which is more common you might think. The result of that, is that the highest grade pre-carves generally leave the buyer somewhat disappointed. That is a very broad generalization, and there certainly are exceptions.

All of that is pretty much irrelevant though if you are not happy with the stock. If the retailer will take it back, there is not really anything to complain about here. Yes, it stinks to have to ship it back, but that is the cost of doing business sight unseen. Even if you didn't get a photo, did you talk to a representative and get an accurate description of the stock? I have often found that can be a very good way of getting a nice piece of wood and they are usually very willing to give one, especially when I am looking for a high end piece. I have found most suppliers want to give accurate descriptions of their products, if for no other reason they don't want to deal with a ticked off customer. If you did and it wasn't what was described, then yes, I would be a bit miffed and would try to have them pick up the shipping back to them. Or at least get some sort of credit. If this was all ordered without communication though, I don't think we can really be bad mouthing the retailer here. They are willing to take it back after all.

That is not a bad piece of wood, might not be what you had expected, but would still make a very fine gun. If you decide not to ship it back, a cap box would cover up a lot of the plain portion of the butt. The wrist doesn't look too bad. The top view shows a lot of grain that runs through the wrist without running out, a little on the left side, but not too bad.

At the end of the day though, you're the one that has to make the call. If you are not happy with it, you're not happy.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 30, 2016, 07:16:14 AM »

Thanks for the input.

I did talk to them before but more about architecture. I was not concerned that they didn't know what they were doing. This is not Richards Microfit after all.

Their own description is, "Grade 4 Maple (M4) has exceptional tight even curl. Unusually figured stocks are scarce, and not always available."

This is not that. Not even close.

IMHO a piece of wood that cost this much should be a pretty fine stick. A good piece of maple should be quarter sawn. The grain should flow properly through the wrist. The actual flow of the growth rings should not be all crazy. Growth ring grain flow that runs different directions is not "figure" it is a serious flaw that weakens the stock. The figure is in the fiddle back. Messed up grain flow also make it much more difficult to work.

Well it looks like I beat this to death. Thanks everyone for indulging me.

eddillon · « **Reply #17 on:** April 30, 2016, 09:16:29 AM »

Quote from: Scota4570 on April 30, 2016, 05:55:50 AM

https://04292016a.shutterfly.com/pictures#n_5

Regardless of the pretty factor of the wood I would like to push forward. I could spend a vast amount of time satisfying my desire for perfection. Sometime I let my perfectionist tendencies hold me back.

However I am concerned about the cross grain in the wrist. Opinion on this please.

Oh, yes, the vendor will take it back. I will be out $30 each way for shipping. By the time I paid for shipping I would be trading for a lesser grade stock, whatever that is, Yikes! They don't have any more, "nice ones", to replace it with. It would be back ordered. Another vendor's pre-carves, use a different but plate and lock. They would have to cut it too, nothing on hand. So, I am back to using one of my big old chunks of wood I already have. I wanted to streamline this project.

For sure next time I get the itch to make something I will be talking to Kibler, Chambers or Curtice

Thanks all

Looks slab sawn to me. Wrist strength looks OK. However, seller's description does not match the blank. Send it back. You will never be satisfied with a completed gun with a piece of wood that was not what you bargained for.

Nordnecker · « **Reply #18 on:** April 30, 2016, 02:57:49 PM »

I would be very disappointed if I recieved a stock like that. I've burned a lot of wood that looked better than that. I'd rather have no figure at all than that.

Captchee · « **Reply #19 on:** April 30, 2016, 03:00:44 PM »

I would agree with the others . If the stock isn’t what you wanted , then send it back
I would also agree that there is a very wide discrepancy in the grading system when it comes to pre carves . I to have been bitten by a well known manufacture . Settling for what they sent you is a waste of your money and in the end a waste of your time as you will never be happy .
It may grow on you but then it may not .
If however you start to work on the stock , its going to be yours .
On the bright side , by the looks of what I can see , I would bet that the figure will get better when you shape down the stock and you have a lot more shaping to do before you get to final dimensions

I have often wondered about why it is that those that make maple stocks have only partially got with the program of the rest of the gunstock community.
The grading system is for lack of a better description , non consistent in that some use the P system and others grades 1, 2, 3, …….
I think maybe this is done for pre-carves based on maple being used a lot in replacement stocks that are duplicated for other mass produce firearms .
Most I ever paid was 2500 for a presentation grade butt and matching splinter of Turkish .
I can also tell you if your looking for a stock that’s tightly figured from one end to the other , your most likely going to have to build from a slab , hand pick the slab or have someone hand pick it for you .
Remember though , figure isn’t everything . I would rather work a stock that was hard with no figure , then a stock with tons of figure but soft as pine .

Eric Krewson · « **Reply #20 on:** April 30, 2016, 04:10:22 PM »

My experience is limited but I always seem to get a higher grade than I paid for from Dunlap.

Joe S. · « **Reply #21 on:** April 30, 2016, 05:53:42 PM »

For that kind of money you should be happy,send it back.Do have one question, you said you always had good experiences with Dick from pectatonica why didn't you go to him in the first place?

Scota4570 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 30, 2016, 06:43:48 PM »

Quote from: Joe S. on April 30, 2016, 05:53:42 PM

For that kind of money you should be happy,send it back.Do have one question, you said you always had good experiences with Dick from pectatonica why didn't you go to him in the first place?

He does not have any Vincent stocks that are ready to go.

OH my, I just tried the super pointy radically curved but plate against my shoulder. My shoulder can not fit in the curve. It would stab me if I shot such a rifle. It is too tight a curve to fit around my bicep too. Really weird.

Done deal, I am out, it goes back ASAP.

https://04292016a.shutterfly.com/pictures#n_5

smylee grouch · « **Reply #23 on:** April 30, 2016, 07:18:26 PM »

Try that deep cresent butt plate against the arm and see if it fits better.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 30, 2016, 07:41:07 PM »

Does not fit around my arm until I get down to the elbow.

Just looked own the barrel. Very rough with gouges in the grooves. What a nightmare.

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Author Topic: Wood Grading ?? (Read 9815 times)

eddillon

eddillon

eddillon

eddillon