Swivel breech rifle

[JCKelly]

OK, I guess . . .

Well, I've learned something about A (Adam?) Daniels

Two not-quite-so-beautiful examples were sold recently at auction

First is Number 255
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a.-daniels-fancy-full-stock-kentucky-percussion-2154-c-79c362bfcd

And Number 207
http://www.kahnfineantiques.com/index.cfm?ImgId=2882

This second one has a patchbox reminiscent of that swivel, except it lacks those silver half-moon inlays.

[Don Stith]

Glad to see the different numbered one. I had seen 7, 17, and 217. Was wondering if the guy knew how to count.  My memory might be off but I think the swivel shown to be A Kunkle in the first patchbox book is actualy an A Daniels .
 Contacted the owner of it several years ago, and it was numbered with a 7 as one of the digits.
 What page number and which edition of Dillin is your rifle pictured in?

 If it makes you feel any better, Tapered barrels have higher front sights than straight or swamped barrels

[JCKelly]

My late rifle is on pages 83-84 as rifle #3, Plates 93 & 94, St. John collection. That's the first edition, but I don't think position changed with later editions. Provenance is myself, the late Robert Hubbard, Sr. of Troy; then the late Bill Harris, also of Michigan, who bought it in the '50's. It might be reasonable to think he got it from the estate of Clarence St. John.

This rifle is smooth-bored, shows little evidence of use except the lock, which has been re-soled. I think "re-", anyway the face is copper brazed to the frizzen.

[rlm]

In order to regulate two tapered barrels one would expect the front sites to be high.

[jdm]

Bill, About how many flint swivel's  ( full stocked or paneled ) do you think are  out there? By the way thank's for pointing out the difference ,full stock or paneled. I had always called them paneled but your definition makes sense.

[Big Wolf]

It is not for sale so just enjoy it.  The pins are all iron. I only know the history for 60 years.  Thirty of those in my safe.  The previous 30 on a wall in a lawyers den. The Doubting Thomas types really discourage the average collector from sharing his treasures.

You're right Don, and this rifle is as good as gold.

[Bill Paton]

Jim (JDM) asked how many full stocked swivel breech flintlocks are “out there”. I have no idea, but the answer is more complex than first imagined. When I get home next week from working out of town, I’ll tabulate the 80+ that I have documented and post the info.

Many full stocked SB’s were made as flintlocks. Many of those were converted to percussion during their time of use. I believe most of those conversions in collections today have been re-converted to flint, and that can be hard to tell sometimes. There are also numerous full stocked “retroversions”, meaning original percussion SB’s turned into flintlocks either through ignorance, or more likely fraudulently. So accurate numbers are hard to come by.

Additionally, numerous later flint swivel breeches were made with no wood in the fore ends. And of course those can be conversions, reconversions, and retroversions, as well.

Next week, expect me to post a stab at this data from those I have been able to study so far.

Bill Paton

[Majorjoel]

 I am very grateful for your shared information regarding swivel breech long rifles Bill!  I never knew the differences between a full stocked vs panel stocked for-end.  I had always been under the impression that the wood up front was always paneled, or not present at all on some examples.  I also have seen pictures of the few S\B rifles made by N. Hawk that he made the for-stock panels from brass and nicely engraved some of them.  Like many devotee's of American longrifle's, my tastes prefer those that have more up front than just barrels alone.                                                                   Since acquiring that older contemporary S\B flintlock rifle a couple weeks back, my interests have peaked upon this subject.  Enjoyed my first shooting experience a couple days ago and have really got the bug for these!  I was a little worried that I would run into issues loading the same barrel twice or get things mixed up in the loading process.  No problem encountered at all however as I just dumped my powder into the top barrel first, refilled my measure and dropped into the lower barrel. Laid patch with centered ball on top barrel, and the same on the lower barrel. Short start each and ram em both home.    Both being rifled in the same 54 caliber is helpful.     Cleanup was also a lot easier than expected as well.  A few more strokes involved but that is about it.  The swivel breech system was quite the invention and having that second shot with just a twist........very cool!

[Frank Graves]

There are some nice swivel breech rifles in the special "Multi barrel: Swivel, Double, other" section in the Virtual Museum in the AmericanLongRifles Forums.

[Bill Paton]

In response to JDM’s previous question on this thread, here is preliminary data from the 86 Kentucky double rifles I have documented so far in my ongoing study for eventual publication. I am responding to his impossible-to-answer question of how many full stocked flint swivel breeches are out there.

Kentucky double rifles studied to date:  86
Swivel breeches:                                 68 (The rest are SXS, superimposed load, and fixed  O/U)         
Originally made as flintlocks:                24
         Converted to perc:                      12
         Reconverted to flint:                     9
         Full stocked:                               20
     I find it hard to believe that only half the flint swivels were converted to percussion. It can be difficult to tell if a reconversion is very skillfully done. I have not yet looked deep into barrels for welded touch holes, but I expect my soon-to-arrive bore scope will be helpful in that regard.

Originally made as perc:                        44
          Retroverted wrongly to Flint           5
          Full stocked                                15

This sample is not random. There are far more unstudied (by me) Kentucky double rifles “out there” than I will ever find and be able to examine. But I am still at it and hope to add many more before going to publication with my findings about their evolution in America, mechanical innovations, function, and history.

I am seeking leads on double rifles for a trip around Pennsylvania this coming late June (KRA time), and around Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia and surrounds in August (CLA time). If any of you can help with that, my efforts will be improved, as will the eventual finished product.

Bill Paton, Anchorage, Alaska

[jdm]

Bill, Thank you for the response . I knew you were doing a study and wondered how many you had seen and documented.  I guess  I should have phrased it better. The study is very interesting and look forward to seeing the book when completed.  I'm sorry to see, but not surprised, that you found five percussion changed to flint. If the owners didn't already know ,I bet they didn't like hearing it.
In your research have you seen any documentation on the price difference between the single barrel rifle  and the swivels? I'm guessing they were to expensive for the average buyer .Plus they were probably more prone to damage with hard use.
Will you be coming through  the Kansas City area?

[Bill Paton]

JDM,

Discussing indications of “retroversion" from original percussion to FL is indeed a delicate matter, handled individually and very carefully. I will not publish retroverted guns without consent of the owner, but even without specific consent I will talk about the matter generally without mentioning specific guns.

Flayderman discusses values in his books, and prices for doubles tend to be only moderately higher than singles, but this determination is difficult to document and Kentucky rifle market fluctuations in general seem to be wider than the degree of added value for double rifles.

Again, I am seeking more Kentucky double rifles of any configuration to add to my study, and I swing around various parts of the Lower 48 periodically to do that. I am grateful for any tips on locating them and can be reached through email at wapaton.sr@gmail.com and 907-230-3600 in Alaska, 4 hours earlier than Eastern time.

Bill Paton

[wildcatter]

Great rifle thanks for showing it to us. I have a quick question, in looking at the trigger guard, does it cock to swivel the barrels similar in concept to a Winchester? If so, I find that fascinating for a flint era rifle. Real dandy rifle!!

Thanks,
Matt

[Don Stith]

It is just a simple latch mechanism with the front of the bow pivoting when you squeese up on it