Author Topic: French M1763 sargeants musket  (Read 8382 times)

Offline Mike Brooks

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French M1763 sargeants musket
« on: March 27, 2009, 03:01:03 AM »
I believe I found one. Anyone ever see one in person besides pictures? Are they as rare as I think they are? Any one hazard a guess as to value?
'nother question.....any body hazard another guess as to the value of a restocked French 1740's Fusil de Trait? It's all there except for the lock. Oh, iron mounts too by the way.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 03:04:49 AM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2009, 01:57:20 AM »
You guys giving me the cold shoulder? ;) C'mon, somebody has to know something about a M1763 sergeants musket..... ???
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Offline JTR

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2009, 04:24:05 AM »
I would, but I've never heard of one.
Flaydermans has a 1763 musket, but nothing regarding the Sargents model.
John
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2009, 04:08:02 PM »
There is one pictured in Moore's "WEAPONS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION" page 98 number S - 37. I can find no other reference or information for these, I thought maybe you gun cranks could help me out on this one. ;D
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Offline TPH

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2009, 07:15:30 PM »
Mike, I have seen one but it was about 20 years ago. A friend of mine bought it when we were at the Baltimore show. Three bands, proportionately spaced, 33 in. barrel I think but I am not certain about that length. It did have a bayonet lug, so appeared to be the correct length. He sold it a few years ago and I have no idea what happened to it after that. It was a percussion conversion, drum and nipple so likely civilian.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 07:17:01 PM by TPH »
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2009, 10:28:53 PM »
Mike...I know someone with an original Charleville, isnt that another name for the 1763?...he may have some ideas about value for a sergents model? You can p.m. me and I will try to get you in touch with him if you like???
TCA
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2009, 11:45:14 PM »
Thanks TC, pm sent.
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2009, 05:35:35 PM »
Mike,
I have never heard of a sargeant's model, but barrel length is probably crucial to the gun.  There was an artillery model which had a 36" barrel.  What is your barrel length?
Dave Kanger

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2009, 07:01:21 PM »
38".  The ringer on these is the brass plated hardware ....front and rear barrel bands, trigger guard and side plate. The gun is overall much lighter in construction than a standard '63. Lighter barrel and 6" lock .
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Offline TPH

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 05:13:07 AM »
Brass plated? Sounds like a later addition.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 03:06:14 PM »
 When I first saw it I thought so too. I don't think so now, too many other unusual details that fit perfectly with Moore's  Sergeant's musket . Take a look at Moore's "WEAPONS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION", this gun is exactly like it.
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Offline tom patton

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2009, 06:49:10 AM »
Mike...I know someone with an original Charleville, isnt that another name for the 1763?.
TCA

Charleville was one of four royal armories, the other three being Maubege,St.Etienne, and in 1777, Tulle. French military muskets and other guns could be made in any of the four.armories. When Navy Arms started producing reproduction infantry muskets in the mid 20th century it copied one from Charleville and I guess the name stuck  like the term "Tulle"
 being applied to all Fusils de chasse even though a great many were made by St. Etienne.
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Offline JV Puleo

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2009, 07:36:58 PM »
Mike,

I have my reservations about Moore's "Sergeants Musket" attribution. His book was published in 1967. There was almost nothing available at the time on the subject of French arms except Hicks and that goes back to the 30s. The French texts I have, especially Boudriot's "Armes a Feu Francais" don't mention a sergeants musket at all although it attempts to list all of the regulation types. It does, however, include information on officer's muskets which, unlike as in British service, were Ordnance manufactured & issued as regulation arms. Actually, Moore calls it a "sergeant's or officer's musket".

Unfortunately, I don't read French very well so I don't know if the brass plating is mentioned. It does seem as if this might be something else as this is too early a date for electro-plating and close plating, as in Sheffield plating, would be difficult, very expensive was usually done in silver and, as far as I know, not done in France. Much more so than making brass barrel bands. I have noticed that many so-called "gilt" swords of the period are actually heavily laquered so I wonder if this is what both you and Moore are seeing. They could also have been fire gilt and laquered which could have the appearance of brass.

Joe Puleo

« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 11:37:25 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline tom patton

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 05:10:55 AM »
Joe,I agree with you as to Warren Moore who was writing in the 60's before Bouchard and Hamilton.I too was puzzled about the "brass plating" so I discussed the matter with a seasoned collector in this field and he confirmed the presence of the brass plating albeit being very rare.Many collectors and reenactors know very little about these French guns and a good example is the fact that Tulle Marine muskets made for the King until 1741 are designated by contract dates rather than model numbers as used for regular infantry muskets.Fusils de chasse{Hunting Muskets} were made for the King by Tulle but they were also made by St. Etienne, Tholiere and other makers yet folks seem to use the term "Tulle' as a catchall name..There is also the tendency as evidenced by an earlier post on this forum to refer to all ALL French regular infantry muskets as "Charlevilles" when in reality they could have also been made any of the other two royal armories,Maubege and St. Etienne and after December 1777 by Tulle. which had lost its contractual arrangement  with the King through the ministry de la Marine in 1741 and became a royal armory in 1777.I never cease to be amazed by the number of serious collectors and reenactors who use the term "Tulle" in referring to virtually all Fusils de chasse and many Marine muskets.Admittedly the main thrust of my interest and research has been Fusils de chasse{primarily those made by Tulle}and trade guns both brass and iron mounted but I do have an interest in the Tulle marine muskets made between 1691 and 1741.,the first and last contract dates between Tulle and the King through his Ministry de la Marine.Sorry for the rambling but in this arena I have a hard time stopping.I realize that this is the longrifle forum but I have always felt that some early Kentuckies show a marked French influence as do many New England fowlers.
Tom Patton

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 05:56:19 AM »
I am pretty certain I have seen what is being called brass plating, albeit a long time ago and on a beautiful French-style NE fowler that utilized what I suspect were ex-French military musket mounts. At least that is what they looked like. No measurements were taken so I don't know if they actually conformed to any known regulation pattern. At the time I discussed it with the owner, who was one of the most prominent NE collectors (now long gone I'm afraid). He wasn't sure what it was although having a background in metal work didn't think it was likely to be brass in any modern sense. I voted for a flash mercuric gilding with a coat of real lacquer...i.e. the stuff made from boiling the shells of lac beetles and imported from India or China in the 18th century. It was apparently a much harder and tougher material than the synthetics that date from the late 19th century.

Offline Stophel

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 08:57:11 PM »
As I understand it, brass leaf could be applied to locks and barrels and such by "tinning" (or probably rather "leading") the iron, then basically soldering the brass leaf onto the barrel or whatever.  I have photos of a gun with a barrel with brass leaf overlaid.  Also probably more than one lock with brass leaf applied.
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Offline TPH

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Re: French M1763 sargeants musket
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 10:37:17 PM »
Thanks JV Puleo and Tom Patton for the information and especially thanks to Mike for submitting this thread, it has been very informative. I've been collecting military muskets (mostly US) for many years and this is all new and interesting to me, need to study the French forerunners to the US muskets more. And thanks to Chris for his thoughts as well.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 10:38:38 PM by TPH »
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