Help with ID - Ketland Pocket Pistol

[Trustee1]

Pops was a collector and left behind 2 Squirrel Rifles, 1 Fowling Piece and 2 Pocket Pistols so I joined ALR for research and help.  For this, my first posting, my thanks to any and all who can help identify a neat old flintlock pocket pistol.  I would be glad to attach pics but like a typical newbie, can't figure out how to do it.

The pistol is 8" long having a tapered, cannon-type barrel that seems to continue through the tang which measures 4-5/8" in total and a rifled bore approximately 5/8" in diameter at the muzzle.  The barrel is stamped with pre-1813 Birmingham Crown over P and V private proof marks and has no visible maker or other marks.  The action is flintlock with light engraving and is stamped "KETLAND" (i.e. without the more common leading initial or the "& Co.").  A single-set trigger is housed in a lightly engraved brass trigger guard with acorn finial and is attached to the stock by two pins.   The stock is made of walnut and includes no engraving, inlays or butt-plate.  A nearly identical pistol by gunmaker Thomas Lane dated 1760 is housed at the Birmingham Gun Museum.

My impression is that this could be a very, very early piece by Thomas Ketland Sr (valuable historically and monetarily).  But, there are well done repairs to the stock and trigger guard so perhaps it is simply a gun that has been pieced together (good looking, but ....)  Any thoughts on posting pics, dating, identifying or valuing this piece (for insurance sake) are most appreciated.  Thank you

[Hungry Horse]

Unless it is stamped on the barrel, there is a good chance that Ketland only made the lock.

  Hungry Horse

[davebozell]

There are posts in the Tutorials section which show how to post pictures.  If that doesn't work, I'd be willing to post them for you if you would email them to me.

Dave

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Trustee1,

Welcome to ALR.  Here's a link to the tutorial Dave mentioned.... http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0

-Ron

[Trustee1]

Thanks for the help.  If I got the TinyPic tutorial correct (and the preview suggests I did), pictures below include a side view, lock close-up, barrel and trigger guard:

[Mike Brooks]

That is not a high dollar gun, no trigger plate and the trigger guard is nailed on, not high end features. I'll bet the lock isn't even bridled internally. JV Puleo could probably tell you when it was made by the lock style. I think probably 1790 give or take, maybe as late as 1810. In any event, it is an interesting pistol. Looks like the cock could be a replacement, it probably should be convex like the lockplate.

[JV Puleo]

I think I've seen this pistol... or more likely another nearly identical example. I suspect it did come from TK Sr's shop before his partnership with William Walker which would place it somewhere between 1760 and 1777-78 (this last date is still uncertain, but before 1783). That doesn't make it more valuable, just more interesting than the more common, "Ketland & Co." marked guns. I'm probably the only person alive who even sees a difference. It is still an inexpensive pocket pistol of the sort furnished to a middle-class tradesman or the personal retainers of someone more prominent. Most of the top-end gunmakers carried such. I've seen real Twigg's that were very plain but well made — more appropriate for the coachman than the person who owned the coach.

I also agree with Mike Brooks that the cock is replaced. It should have a convex face. Most of the pre-partnership K guns I've noted are actually of very high quality... as good as B'ham could produce in the 3rd quarter of the 18th century.

Garth Vincent had one for sale a few years ago that was very similar, incorrectly dated to 1740. It was already old fashioned when TK Sr. set up shop but provincial guns often were — one of the hazards of dating by appearance based on what was coming out of the high-end London trade.

I'm in Rhode Island... if you are anywhere near I'd like to take some photos.

JVP

[T*O*F]

What holds the barrel in......the front lock screw?

[JV Puleo]

As far as I know, just the tang screw. There may be a hole through the rear of the breech block as well. Its a turn-off barrel pistol so the front 2/3 of the barrel unscrews. The charge was very small... maybe 10 or 15 grains. It will have a chamber in the breech that the ball sat in and the barrel was screwed down on it.
jp

[Trustee1]

JV, I think a prior post of yours on a different pistol clued me into the possibility that this could be an early Ketland by Thomas Sr.  I am still looking for notes but I believe Pops picked this up in the '90s and no later than 2004.  He wasn't terribly comfortable with the internet so if you saw a similar gun while surfing, it is unlikely that it was this one otherwise, maybe so.  I would be glad to let you have it to take some pics but, being in NE Kansas you may have to settle for the little lady's camera work and emailing for now.  We could get pictures most any way you would like but I am reluctant to take anything apart.  Even the screw barrel is on so tight, until you mentioned it I thought the barrel was not a turn-off.  Let me know.

Thank you to all for your comments. I will be rechecking this posting for the next few days for any additional questions or comments anyone may have.  In the meantime, if anyone is interested, I am preparing a new and separate post for a Queen Anne pistol that may have been made by John Fox Twigg (and maybe not).  Regards - Kurt