How can I disguise a Davis #4 trigger

[frogwalking]

I am working on another Tennessee Mountain rife.  In an effort to improve on the last one, I want to make the standard Davis No. 4 set trigger look more like what one would expect to find on this type of rifle.  Suggestions requested. 

Another DST question.  I know how to reliably make double set triggers work properly; but how does one make them work right while still having a decent unset trigger pull.

Thanks,

Frog

[smylee grouch]

I like those Davis double set triggers but it might be tough to get a single stage pull that is considered good because the front trigger is pined through the trigger bar and if you inlet it so the V made by the two triggers is under the sear your front trigger might be too far forward. I have altered those triggers by clamping in a vice for a heat sink and using a torch to get the shoe red hot you can change the curve and shape of thing.

[David R. Pennington]

I most always re forge and re shape the store bought triggers if I don't make my own. You can always harden and re temper if need be http://s1239.photobucket.com/user/DavidPflint/media/IMG_2370_zpsdd8a20df.jpg.html

[Mark Elliott]

It is extremely difficult to get a good unset trigger pull on the front trigger.    I have had to go to a compound curve on the sear bar to get it.   I wouldn't recommend that you try.   Most of the original southern rifles didn't have double throw triggers.   So,  it wasn't an issue.   

[Bob Roller]

I am working on another Tennessee Mountain rife.  In an effort to improve on the last one, I want to make the standard Davis No. 4 set trigger look more like what one would expect to find on this type of rifle.  Suggestions requested. 

Another DST question.  I know how to reliably make double set triggers work properly; but how does one make them work right while still having a decent unset trigger pull.

Thanks,

Frog

All that's needed to make a decent unset pull is a lock that can be tuned to that idea.
The "set" part with an adjustment screw will take care of itself.

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

As has been suggested, bottom line is the constraints of a set trigger force less than ideal geometry when the trigger is used unset.  The pin is forced to be low and through the plate.  In addition, the distance from the pivot to the sear contact point is forced to be pretty long in order for the trigger to function well, when set.  These factors result in a hard trigger pull.  No "compound curve", (whatever that is), or perfectly designed / tuned lock can negate these factors.  Just simple mechanics.

Jim

[sqrldog]

FW
American Pioneer Video has an interesting video of Frank House modifying a set of Davis triggers to look more like Virginia triggers.  You may want to check the video out if you're serious about completely modifying the triggers instead of a simple refile of the existing triggers.Tim

[flehto]

On rifles that "should" have DSTs and seeing I used these rifles for hunting, the rear setting trigger has a block installed to make it inoperative. The front trigger is then adjusted for a 3-4 lb pull. Did this w/ a TC Hawken and a Pecatonica Hawken which had Davis DSTs. The low pivot pin location doesn't make it impossible to achieve a 3-4 lb pull. Did this yrs ago and forgot how I did it...now 84 and my recall is waning.....Fred

[Bob Roller]

As has been suggested, bottom line is the constraints of a set trigger force less than ideal geometry when the trigger is used unset.  The pin is forced to be low and through the plate.  In addition, the distance from the pivot to the sear contact point is forced to be pretty long in order for the trigger to function well, when set.  These factors result in a hard trigger pull.  No "compound curve", (whatever that is), or perfectly designed / tuned lock can negate these factors.  Just simple mechanics.

Jim

Simple mechanics or not,the Hawken copy I made nearly 50 years ago had a decent,safe single trigger let off and I used it that way as much as I did the set trigger. I don't know what the Davis #4 trigger is but a friend had several sets of Davis triggers here last week and I thought the spring driving the rear trigger was way too strong and might actually break a half cock position in a tumbler if it let go unexpectedly while being carried. I make double set triggers once in a while and I know HC recreations require them but I can get along without them and all the best targets I shot in years now passed were done with a single trigger.

Bob Roller

[Don Stith]

The majority of the  "southern Mountain" rifles I have examined have single lever set triggers.  It is a rare one that has the hawkenish double lever-double set.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The front trigger of the Davis sets is for lowering the cock/hammer without having to fire the rifle.  It is not a good design for using unset to shoot well.  The Hawken design is better, but still not great.

[frogwalking]

Thanks to all.  The purpose you describe, Dr. Taylor makes total sense.  I recently made a hunting rifle for my grand daughter.  I installed a non set trigger, placing the pivot high, and about 5/16 from the sear bar.  Very nice trigger pull.  I don't think a set trigger could add much, considering the handicap when an unset snap shot might be required.  I will set the trigger for 8 ounces to one pound so it will not be so sensitive.

[bgf]

The L&R triggers in same size plates seem to  have a little better simple trigger pull.  Plus they are easier to modify, at least in my experience, as the Davis triggers appear to be air-hardening thus hard to anneal and brittle after being worked hot.  I like the flat springs in the l&r triggers also.

[frogwalking]

I had planned to reshape the front trigger, hot, and file the back one so it is not so wide.  Any suggestions on how to reshape the front trigger without making it brittle?

[bgf]

I had planned to reshape the front trigger, hot, and file the back one so it is not so wide.  Any suggestions on how to reshape the front trigger without making it brittle?

Honestly, I don't know exactly what will work.  Here's one of the threads I remember, maybe some information that will help:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18442.0

The set I was talking about there went in my chunk gun and is the only component I would change.  You see others had problems with them also.  

PS they seem to get plenty hard just air cooling.  Maybe temper a bit after that?

[Gaeckle]

I had planned to reshape the front trigger, hot, and file the back one so it is not so wide.  Any suggestions on how to reshape the front trigger without making it brittle?

Those triggers air harden. I think you would be best to purchase the trigger levers as a blank (pretty sure if you call Tim at davis he can supply you with them) and reshape them. Those triggers sold as a 'kit' are not hard and can be filed, shaped, stared at, lost on your workbench....whatever.

You can soften the trigger with heat and reshape some, but then they become hard as they cool. You may have to anneal them by gradually allowing the heat to disapate with sand, cat litter (new and not used of coarse) or some other media to prevent the workpiece from cooling so quickly.

[frogwalking]

Thanks all for sharing your wisdom.  I have had good luck using the Davis triggers when used as is.  I considered buying a set of L&R triggers, but have some Davis parts, including the triggers themselves from a previous build.  I may attempt to modify the spares and see how it goes.  If it doesn't go well, I will just use the Davis as they were bought.  The fellow this rifle is destined for does not know one trigger from the other.  In the end, my work is generally for my own education and enjoyment.

[sqrldog]

FW
In the video I referenced earlier, Frank House made a small mound of charcoal on a metal plate placed the triggers on top lit it and retrieved the triggers the next day after it all cooled. He was able to saw and file the triggers cold. He heat treated the triggers after finishing with his modification which included adding new trigger shoes.

[frogwalking]

I got a break today, so rummaged around to find my old Davis No. 4 trigger parts.  I clamped a pair of vicegrips tight on the blade portion of the spare front trigger where it normally through the trigger plate.  I heated the trigger itself to a dull red with a Mapp gas torch and bent it slightly so the bottom tip curved toward the front rather than the back.  It took heating and hammering twice to get the shape I wanted.  After it cooled, I filed it smooth with an old small triangle file I have had more than 20 years,  The engagement points had been protected by the vice grip so it was still too hard to file.  This one acted exactly like I would expect a normal carbon steel to behave.  I am encouraged to try the same thing on the trigger that will go into the current build. I can't explain others unusual experiences with the Davis triggers.  All of you folks know more about this stuff than I do. Sometimes an ignorant person can do what a knowledgeable one knows not to do.