Author Topic: Chamber's Isaac Haines -Mostly done, shot it today  (Read 18659 times)

Offline Chowmi

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Chamber's Isaac Haines -Mostly done, shot it today
« on: May 19, 2016, 10:06:48 PM »
The post below was originally part of Davebozell's  "Show us your current project" thread.  The moderators have split the many projects in the original thread out into individual threads so the members can more easily ask questions and the builders can more easily answer.

Currently working on a Chamber's Isaac Haines in .54 Cal.

IMG_3522 by chowmif16, on Flickr

Barrel and lockplate are in.  I'm inletting the breech block and tang now.

Curtis,
I will also be doing RCA #43 at the WKU seminar.  I wimped out and had Mark Wheland inlet the barrel and ramrod for me.
See you there!

Norm
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 01:58:06 AM by Chowmi »
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Curtis

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Current project by Chowmi - Chamber\\\\
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2016, 08:09:15 AM »
Curtis,
I will also be doing RCA #43 at the WKU seminar.  I wimped out and had Mark Wheland inlet the barrel and ramrod for me.
See you there!

Norm

Norm, looking forward to seeing you in class!  I all juiced up and ready to go!!

Curtis
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 07:14:58 AM »
It occurred to me that I have neglected this thread.  I did post some questions about patchbox inletting on another thread, but thought I would re-consolidate my progress into this thread.

This build has been interrupted by starting another gun from a blank at WKU last year, and also building a Kibler SMR.

To catch up from the last post:

Butt Plate inletted last spring:
IMG_3523 by chowmif16, on Flickr


Ramrod Thimbles, entry pipe, and nose-cap are on:
IMG_3527 by chowmif16, on Flickr

I countersunk the hole for the copper rivet in the nose-cap too much.  I also didn't cut enough off of the rivet, so when I peened it down it work hardened and did not fill the countersink.  This photo is prior to filing it down.  The nose cap is pretty thick, so I expect I will file it down a bit which will help.  It will also help with making it more flush with the wood behind the nose cap.

You can see what I have to fix here:
IMG_3529 by chowmif16, on Flickr

Toe plate is in.  I took too much wood underneath a portion of the inlet, and you can see the dip in the brass in the photo.
IMG_3547 by chowmif16, on Flickr



I did some initial shaping of the stock, and final shaping of the patchbox area in preparation for inletting the patchbox.  Here is a rough line drawing of the patch box:
IMG_3541 by chowmif16, on Flickr

Patchbox finial inlet and rough filed.  Still working on the inlet for the lid.  The patchbox is a copy of RCA #80

IMG_3643 by chowmif16, on Flickr

IMG_3644 by chowmif16, on Flickr

I'm not particularly good at inletting, and this was the most complex inlet I have done.  Curved surface and lots of nooks and crannies on the finial.  I went slow and am pretty happy with the result.  It's probably my best inlet so far, which may not be saying much. 

I've also removed a fair amount of wood from everywhere on the stock, skinnied up the lock panel, shaped the cheek piece, inlet the side panel etc etc. 

This gun will be a mish mash of Isaac Haines rifles.  My choices were based more on what I thought I could do than trying to emulate one particular rifle. 

Cheers,
Norm


Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 02:37:33 PM »
Nobody ever mentioned  this, but if you were going to do a lower buttstock molding you should do it before you do the box. Of course you can still do an incised line. It all looks good from where I'm sitting.
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 06:32:19 PM »
Mike,
that's a good point, thank you.  There isn't much room, but I think I will fit in an incised line.
Learn something every day!

Norm
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Chowmi

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Offline Curtis

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 06:19:56 AM »
Good work there Norm.  I haven't done a full patchbox yet myself, looks like it's gotta be a nerve-wracking job!  Post some pics when you get the side panels on.

Curtis 
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2017, 07:37:45 AM »
Curtis,
I had been putting this off for quite a while because I was afraid to bugger it up. So far, it is going better than I expected. I will post pictures soon. I'm having some computer issue, and once I resolve them, I will post photos and lessons learned from it. (Typing from my iPad now)

Since my last post, I have inletted both side plates. I did a passable job, but not great. Still working on my inletting skills.
I have filed the edge of one of the sideplates to mate with the patchbox lid. I will do the other one tomorrow, then cut and file the butt-plate end of the box so that I can re-install the butt plate.

I learned a bunch of good lessons doing this, but will post all of that when I can sit at a keyboard and type, along with some pictures.

Cheers, norm.
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 06:20:16 AM »
The patch box is inlet now.  Here are a few photos:

IMG_3653 by chowmif16, on Flickr

IMG_3654 by chowmif16, on Flickr

I have not drilled and gouged out the patch box cavity or done anything with the release mechanism yet.  Obviously, I need to trim and file the lid to the butt plate profile as well.

I have done some preliminary filing of the brass to match the wood, but there is a ways to go on that. 

I'm pretty happy with it so far.  This is my first patch box, and I was anticipating a major disaster. No disaster as of yet....

Here are a few lessons learned:

The form I used to bend the patch box lid was not uniform enough.  Additionally, when I was filing some of the knuckles, too much of the lid was protruding out of the vise and I managed to bend the lid out of true when the file caught an edge.  It's not quite straight anymore.  I corrected some of that back in the bending form, but not all of it.  I will likely have to file it down such that you won't notice on the outside face, but it will be obvious when the patch box is open.


I miss-measured the width of the lid from the blown-up photos I had.  It was hard to tell which line was the edge of the lid, and which was an engraved line.  The key to seeing that is to look at the cut-out in the butt plate on the picture.  Had I done that, I would have got it right.  In the end, the lid is about 1/8" too wide. 
I realized this after I inlet the side plates.  So, I had to file down the inside edges of the side plates to allow the lid to close.  In the end, the patchbox is the right overall size, just mis-proportioned between the lid and side plates. 

My inletting still needs work.  Yup, I know that.  I also did not screw down the first sideplate before I drew the outline and inlet it.  That was a mistake.  For the second one, I drilled the holes in the sideplate and stock, and screwed it down, then drew the outline for stabbing it in.  That worked much better. 

You can see a gap in the butt plate inlet.  I inlet the butt plate quite some time ago, but if memory serves, it is an issue with the countersink for the butt plate return screw.  It matches up very well without the screw in, and also did so before I countersunk that hole.  I'll work on that part as well.

I didn't quite get the inlet of the hinge even.  The bottom of the hinge protrudes a bit more from the stock than does the top of the hinge.  I will file a bit off to reduce the effect, but it will always show.

I had initially intended to use Jacob Dickert's solution (as stated in Grenville) for the front portion of the sideplate where it meets the hinge.  In that solution, you make a 90 degree bend down, and then curve an extension forward to go under the hinge.  That holds the front end of the sideplate down.  I chose not to do that because I thought it would be difficult to get a clean inlet, starting with that portion that extends down into the stock. 
So,  I used another technique from Grenville, which is put two 45 degree bevels on the front edge of the sideplate, making a point.  I then engraved and filed a 90 degree trough in the back end of the hinge knuckle for the side plate to mate into.  I like that technique.  I did a better job on the lower sideplate than I did on the upper sideplate. 

The side plates are flat pieces of brass, not curved in any way to match the profile of the stock.  The sheet brass was pretty thick, about .060".  There isn't much curve on those portions of the stock, but there is a little.  My solution was to leave a little bit proud of the wood, and I am filing the sideplates to create a little bit of a curve on them. 

That's about all I can think of.  My biggest lesson was that in order to learn, I just needed to get in there and do it.  I didn't do a great job, but the important part is that I did it, and learned from it. 


Cheers,
Norm

« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 07:00:22 AM by Chowmi »
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Joe S.

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 01:30:24 PM »
coming along nicely, we are our own biggest critics,don't be so hard on yourself. There's lots going on with that end of the rifle and your making it all come together.

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2017, 08:01:27 PM »
Thanks Joe!

I'm deliberately critical of my own work, so that I might remember what not to do next time!


Question:

How deep do you guys usually make the patch box cavity?  A better question might be, how much wood do you leave on the back side?  I couldn't find anything about it in Grenville.

Cheers,
Norm
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Chowmi

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Offline Randall Steffy

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 08:09:34 PM »
You should be able to "fit a Snickers bar in there." So I am told and I believe the picture is a good one.

Offline Curtis

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2017, 05:11:46 AM »
Looks like you overcame the issues pretty well, Norm.  It should make for a nice rifle when you are finished with it.  Isn't all fixing your own mistakes just the most fun you can have, lol?  ;D


Curtis
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline smart dog

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2017, 03:00:59 PM »
Hi Norm,
It is looking good!

dave
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2017, 11:51:21 PM »
Thanks Curtis and Dave!

I've made a bit of progress on the patchbox.  I'll post pictures a bit later.

Patch box is filed down, about ready to move on to sandpaper. 

I made a cutout in the butt and installed the release catch and spring.  The release mechanism is in kit form that I bought along with the rifle from Chambers.  I filed and shaped the catch bit that attaches to the lid.  When I tried to install it on the lid by peening it into the countersink, it just wouldn't peen well.  I had annealed it, but maybe not well enough.  As I pounded on it harder, it just began to slip down the vise jaws.  In frustration, I low temp silver soldered it in.  That worked, but the difference in color from the solder to the steel catch is obvious. 

I will likely make a new catch from brass and install it instead.  I'm gonna sleep on it for a while.

I drilled the hole for the pushrod by eye, and that worked out really well.  Hit right where I expected.

The spring on the release is very strong.  It takes super human thumb strength to release the lid.  I will file the spring down to reduce the tension.  I might also file the face of the catch down a bit to reduce the amount of travel needed.  I'll see how reducing the spring tension works first. 

Last part is to widen the hole in the butt plate return and then trial fit the push rod and file until it is the right length. 

After that, install the spring to push the lid open and create the patch box cavity.  I just got two Forstner bits (1" and 1 1/4") to do this. 

That's all I could get to today,

Cheers,
Norm

Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2017, 05:34:22 AM »
I made a fair bit of progress yesterday and today on the patch box.  I know this site thrives on pictures, but I live in the sticks, and internet is at about 1990 internet speeds right now. 

Anyway,

I drilled the hole in the butt plate return for the release button.  This took forever just to drill that huge hole. 
I then filed, tested, filed, etc etc. to get the push rod to the right length to release the lid.  That worked well. 

The next part didn't work so well.
 
I filed away at the spring for the release mechanism and managed to reduce the force required to open the catch by quite a bit.  The down-side is that I suspect I changed the internal tension on the spring, because now the spring's resting position is different.  Bugger.  Upon re-assembly, the catch no longer engages the retaining catch on the patch box lid.  To illustrate, the catch and spring that I have is a similar configuration to the hand and spring on a Colt percussion revolver.  The spring now does not push the catch (or the "hand" on a colt) forward enough to engage the retaining catch on the lid.  All worked perfectly before I filed the spring.  Not anymore. 

I think the solution to this is to glue in a wood shim, thus moving the catch closer to the retaining catch on the lid.  I suppose pictures would help....

I thought I would sleep on the spring issue, so I then drilled the cavity with 1 1/4 inch Forstner bits and then chiseled away to get the cavity opened up.  I still have some cleanup to do there.

I've been trying to upload photos, but it seems that's not going to happen right now. 

More later,
Cheers,
Norm


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Chowmi

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Offline Curtis

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2017, 05:50:08 AM »
I'm having a bit of difficulty visualizing your situation with the spring (other than it has moved away and don't work no more!).  Have confidence in yourself, and looking at it with fresh eyes in the morning will help.  You may get lucky and have the solution appear in a dream tonight - that happened to me once or twice.  At the very worst you can start with a new spring.  Post those pics if your internet speed up a bit.

Curtis
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2017, 06:02:13 AM »
Curtis,
It's hard to describe, I didn't really expect anyone to get it!    I'll post pictures when I can.

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2017, 06:40:27 AM »
Okay,
internet working now. 
Here's a few photos:

Patchbox and release button:

IMG_3660 by chowmif16, on Flickr

Cavity:

IMG_3661 by chowmif16, on Flickr

My drawing of the spring problem, viewed looking at the butt end with the butt plate off:

CCF02022017_00000 by chowmif16, on Flickr

Bottom drawing is how it was prior to filing the spring.  Top drawing is how it is now.  The spring bent or warped closer to the catch, which then results in the catch not being in the right place.  The spring rests against the wood cut out, so my solution is to inlet a shim, which will rotate the entire spring/catch mechanism counter-clockwise and put it back into alignment. 

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Curtis

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2017, 08:23:37 AM »
Norm, from your sketches I think you could bent that back to the correct position.  If not you could heat it, bend it and the re-heat treat it.  How is it attached to the latch, is it inserted into a slot?

Curtis
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2017, 06:17:40 PM »
Curtis,
It looks to have been cast as a single piece, catch and spring. 

I may see if I can bend.  Frankly, my understanding of heating and tempering springs is poor.  The reason I had thought to do the wood shim is that I know I can do the woodwork, I'm not so sure that I can properly re-temper the spring if I heat it!  Seemed like a lower risk option. 

I have Suzanne Warren Bicio's book about hardening, tempering, normalizing metals.  I may have a look again through that. 

I have plenty of other things to do, so I will let it sit for a bit rather than rush headlong into a mistake.

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Online rich pierce

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2017, 08:22:36 PM »
From the drawing I do not see how the spring would exert any force at all on the pivoting catch that is in the buttstock.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2017, 12:28:42 AM »
Rich,
the spring and catch are a single piece.  It is held in the stock by a screw through the bottom of it.  The screw part being the pivot.  The whole thing sits in a recess in the stock.  The spring rests against the wood which is what provides something for it to push against. 
I hope that makes sense.  I just don't have any pictures of the installation. 

I managed to bend the spring back a bit, and now it all works.  I also installed the spring to push the lid open when the catch is released.

The patch box is now fully installed and functional, just some cleanup to do. 

Success!
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline coopersdad

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2017, 02:32:14 AM »
That's looking great to me, Norm.  I haven't done a brass box yet, so thanks for these posts. 

Mike
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2017, 05:17:17 AM »
Mike,
thank you.  With your skills, it will be no problem to do a brass patchbox.  I found that I just needed to think through everything, and spend a lot of time looking at books/pictures.

I didn't want to do a build-along thread, because frankly I didn't want anyone to think that this is how it should be done.  I had thought to do a thread titled "watch an idiot make a patchbox!", but I didn't want to break up my workflow with taking too many pictures. 

In the end, I think I will post a wrap-up of my lessons learned so that other new guys (or those who haven't done it) could learn from it.

Hope to see you in June at WKU!

Norm

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Chowmi

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Re: Current project by Chowmi - Chamber's Isaac Haines - finally updated
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2017, 04:50:32 PM »
Yep,

Shim the spring.

Just be sure there will be enough throw to clear the hook on the patch box lid, otherwise it will be 'locked shut'.   :o

Cheers,
Smoketown