Bedding the breech

[Flint62Smoothie]

Bedding:FWIW Pro-Bed 2000 is a far superior bedding epoxy, as its stucture are microballons that cannot be compressed.

Release Agents:i use the same technique as Pete does when using wax, but I find that Pam cooking spry w/ olive oil to be the most reliable ...

[WadePatton]

i've used the cooking spray as well.  i'm the "uses what is handy and likely to work" sort sometimes.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I use an old toothbrush and Kiwi shoe polish/wax for the release agent.  Just brush it on, and let it dry.  Dan's advice aboout blocking places where the bedding can make a locking bridge is really important.  I use a putty made from grease and asbestos.  yeah, I know - crazy!

[davec2]

I use wax at times.  And, although it takes a little fooling around to apply the "blue stuff" (actually PVA ... Poly vinyl alcohol) is excellent.  However, for fast and easy application of a sure fire release agent, Brownells sells "Acra-Release" in a spray can.  Almost sailor (i.e. idiot) proof.  Part # 081-028-000

[JTR]

Almost sailor (i.e. idiot) proof. 

Hey, easy there! 

John

[JDK]

Almost sailor (i.e. idiot) proof. 

Hey, easy there! 

John

I think we've each known a more that a few that resemble that remark.   Enjoy, J.D.

[Jerry V Lape]

That remark fully incorporates the  Anvil and Rubber hammer theory of the American GI.  Give a soldier, sailor, airman or marine a 300lb anvil and a rubber hammer, leave him alone with it for 48 hours.  When you come back he not only will have broken the anvil but will also have lost the rubber hammer.  I don't fully subscribe to that theory!  While I have been known to break a few anvils, never have I misplaced the hammer.  Someday I may explain the Sahara Desert theory which requires a much higher level of cognitive acumen to comprehend. 

[Dphariss]

I use wax at times.  And, although it takes a little fooling around to apply the "blue stuff" (actually PVA ... Poly vinyl alcohol) is excellent.  However, for fast and easy application of a sure fire release agent, Brownells sells "Acra-Release" in a spray can.  Almost sailor (i.e. idiot) proof.  Part # 081-028-000

Wax works better in that it can be used to prevent mechanical locks from forming. I.E as fill in holes to undercuts etc
My wife used to do several a day (using Micro-Bed) for several years and used wax. They ALWAYS came apart.
I have done more than a few but I refused to use Micro-Bed if I could avoid it (I was the custom shop). I used Acra-Glas since it sets better and always used wax and pitched the release agent they sent in the trash. I would fit everything to 0 then bed the receiver. Other parts were not bedded. Wife fit production guns to .001 with a feeler then bedded the entire action.
I learned the wax thing from a couple of Trinidad grads. Never had a reason to cuss it. Johnsons Paste Floor Wax or similar.
Apply a thin coat to the metal, apply another thin coat, fill any screw holes and undercuts, coat all screws that will contact the glue, mix the stuff and bed the thing.
If bedding a finished stock wax the finished wood to keep epoxy from bonding where it shows.
Dan

[FL-Flintlock]

Bedding:FWIW Pro-Bed 2000 is a far superior bedding epoxy, as its stucture are microballons that cannot be compressed.

Can you provide the standardized test data to support that incredible claim?  I'd also be interested in seeing the peel, lap & shear strengths but especially the compression load yield limit.
Thanks,
Mark

[FL-Flintlock]

You can use cut up fiberglass insulation added to epoxy glue to give it strength and to make it thicker.  Any glue by itself is not very strong if it is thick.

I'm really trying hard not to sound like I'm just jerking chains ... well, okay I am jerking chains because I can't believe how many people are so easily suckered in by internet nonsense.  Sorry Wilkie, nothing personal but if what you claim is true, how come people aren't insulating their houses with woven fiberglass cloth instead of the fluffy stuff? 
Mark

[FL-Flintlock]

If you're going to use epoxy to hold inlays, better use pins as well.  Movement of wood with moisture changes and time may well have some unwanted effects.

That's impossible Jim because the laws of physics concerning rigid setting chemical-cure plastic compounds and dissimilar materials don't apply to gun work.

[Dphariss]

The other thing one runs into is there are "Epoxies" and there are other "Epoxies". Some of the stuff is little more than goo that may or may not set hard or may set TOO hard. The stuff I bought at a Hobby Store was cheap so I figured I would try it,  it was also brittle as glass and I am sure would have failed in any structural application.
Better stuff, JB Weld, some of the wood based epoxies and Acra-glas are not brittle in some case vry tough in fact and are less likely to fail. Rot Doctor makes what is supposed to be a very wood compatible range of Epoxies as do some others. Acra-glas gel is claimed to be slight flexible so as to be able to move with the wood without breaking.
I don't use epoxy for inlays unless it is hiding some flaw in the wood like a massive bark inclusion 
I like to pin my inlays in any event.

I did most of my time building for my Commercial License in a American Trainer.  9255L
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_American_AA-1. This is one of the most fun to fly general aviation A/C I ever flew. See through canopy, high roll rate. Just like a little fighter plane.
It was almost completely bonded with epoxy and had only a handful of rivets in the wings, for example, that held on the fiberglass wind tips. Properly engineered epoxies, mixed right and cured right are downright amazing.
But buying some generic glue can cause problems.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

And with all this said, you don't need any of it for building a longrifle!

[wilkie]

Sorry fl-flintlock you are comparing two dissimilar applications.  Insulation uses trapped air space to impede heat loss by conduction.  Look at the applications of epoxie glues that include several different additives to increase the strength of the material, steel bed, acra glass, and others.  If the epoxie glue was as strong by itself as you imply they would not use woven cloth or mat in auto body applications to increase the strength and hold its shape. 

[FL-Flintlock]

Sorry fl-flintlock you are comparing two dissimilar applications.  Insulation uses trapped air space to impede heat loss by conduction.  Look at the applications of epoxie glues that include several different additives to increase the strength of the material, steel bed, acra glass, and others.  If the epoxie glue was as strong by itself as you imply they would not use woven cloth or mat in auto body applications to increase the strength and hold its shape.  

You said "fiberglass insulation" to which I point out that it is a completely different material than "reinforcement fiberglass" ... it's as night to day.  Furthermore, if the resin, be it epoxy or polyester, is not compatible with the material being added, then it's nothing more than an exercise in futility and just because something is "added" does not mean the strength is increased.  If the additive is not compatible with both the resin composition and the application, it's not going to work.  I tried in vain to explain the problem with resin composition and the common dry-joint issues as well as dissimilar materials issues in other threads.  The same concerns apply when using additives whereas the additive must be compatible with the resin as well as with the application or you're just wasting your time because it's going to fail.  I've gone to elaborate lengths trying to explain this stuff but most people choose to believe sales-hype over fact and others are adamant about buying from the hobby/hardware store rather than supporting one of their own.
Mark

[FL-Flintlock]

And with all this said, you don't need any of it for building a longrifle!

And we don't need electric lights, machine tools, pre-carved stocks, sandpaper, MIG welders and all the other modern conveniences either but they sure come in handy just like pine tar mastic did back in the day before all the modern stuff came along. 

[pathfinder]

Not sure,but all this seems a bit serious for Muzzleloader gun building! I'm not a scientist,but I've used epoxy to bed a breech if it was a bit proud off the barrel. Don't have any idea what shear strength,lap or peel compresion load smash rate is,but after 20 years of being behind the breach of my .50 cal southern gun,"Pox",the epoxy bedding is still tight and right,after a few thousand rounds through it,and Deer hunting 3 week's every year,shooting in all season's of the year,in all humidity and temperature variation's in Michigan. It's also in a very unstable bird's eye maple stock.

Also,did I miss something? Buying from a hobby shop rather than supporting one of our own? Not to be disrespectful,but,how so? Just curious

[WadePatton]

JB Weld is my duct tape*.   

*a/k/a Kentucky Krome.

[pathfinder]

JB Weld is my duct tape*.   

*a/k/a Kentucky Krome.

Love it! LOL

[Dphariss]

And with all this said, you don't need any of it for building a longrifle!

This is true.

Still I view the use of plastic stock finishes as worse.

Dan

[Don Tripp]

Acra-Glass/Acra-Gel and Microbed are all good products made specifically for use on firearms. Hardware store and hobby shop epoxies are probably not made for use on firearms. To my way of thinking, if one is putting forth the effort to build a rifle and the application of a two part epoxy is indicated, it only makes sense to use a product that was intended for that purpose as does the patronage of a company like Brownell's that makes these products available to us.

[wilkie]

Hardware store and hobby shop epoxies are probably not specifically made for firearms but are uaually made for many of the materials that are used in guns.  My original post about cut up insulation added to epoxie seems to have upset some people but I have been using the cut up glass fibers from Owens-Corning pink fiberglass insulation in epoxie for about 40+ years and it has worked very well to glass bed cf guns and to fill voids where I have removed too much wood when bedding a ml barrel and other applications to form fit parts.
 

[little joe]

Do they still make Microbed, if so who, where and contact.

[FL-Flintlock]

Acra-Glass/Acra-Gel and Microbed are all good products made specifically for use on firearms. Hardware store and hobby shop epoxies are probably not made for use on firearms./quote]

No they're not, they're standard generic resins for which no standardized industrial epoxy adhesive rating test results have been made available.  See http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=23701.15

To my way of thinking, if one is putting forth the effort to build a rifle and the application of a two part epoxy is indicated, it only makes sense to use a product that was intended for that purpose as does the patronage of a company like Brownell's that makes these products available to us.

Again, read what I posted in the other thread because there's no magic bullet one-size-fits-all resin blend for all applications.  Read what Jim Kibler said, "If you're going to use epoxy to hold inlays, better use pins as well.  Movement of wood with moisture changes and time may well have some unwanted effects."  He's absolutely correct because a non-rigid resin that is purpose blended for dissimilar substrates is completely different in form and function from rigid and semi-rigid resins that are primarily blended for use on like/similar substrates.  There are reasons why wood glue is not used to build brick walls and Portland mortar is not used to laminate wooden China cabinets - despite the fact that both fall under the general category of "adhesives", they are for completely different applications.  Likewise, all epoxy resins fall under the general category of "polyepoxides" just as PVC, ABS, LDPE, PETE and HDPE all fall under the general category of "thermoplastics" yet they're all tailored for use in very different applications.

Thus, the question is do you want to use the right materials for the application or not?  If so, I'll be happy to help but it gets tiring trying to explain the facts when some would rather argue than learn and quite frankly it's rather insulting when I invest my time trying to help only to get kicked in the teeth by those who would rather patronize anyone but the contributing ALR member.  I invested a lot of time and lot of money developing Ultra-RVC flexible epoxy specifically for the most common bedding and potting applications on guns.  Difference is, I don't push BS sales-hype, I deal in the facts based on the application because my primary professional experience is industrial/commercial where choosing the wrong product could cost tens-of-thousands of dollars in production losses or millions of dollars in fines if a leak/spill happens.

Merry Christmas!
Mark

[pathfinder]

  Difference is, I don't push BS sales-hype, I deal in the facts based on the application because my primary professional experience is industrial/commercial where choosing the wrong product could cost tens-of-thousands of dollars in production losses or millions of dollars in fines if a leak/spill happens.

Merry Christmas!
Mark

And that's appreciated,but that type of philosophy does not always translate into what we are doing here. The type of product used is NOT as critical in a muzzleloader as it would be in an environment that could prove to be hazardous in both money AND lives.

I feel the same when it comes to finishes. I've been a professional restorer and conservator of antique's my whole life. I do get a little anal when it comes to finishes,but, I say my peace and move on. I put the info out there,if someone pick's it up,great. If not,that's good too.