Bedding the breech

[eagle24]

Been away for a few months.  I got snowed under at work installing a new computer system and my spare time got eaten up shooting archery tournaments.  I'm kinda slow and it took me 3 days to notice most of you were moved over here from the old site.  Anyway, I am back working on a rifle I am building and have run into a problem I need to deal with.  The last couple of nights I spent inletting the lock.  When I removed the wood for the bolster I discovered that my breech is not as well fit at the breech face to the stock as I thought.  The upper part of the breech is tight to the stock but the surface where the breech face contacts the stock is undercut creating a small gap from nothing at the top to maybe 1/32" at the bottom.  I think the breech plug lug is making good contact, but was thinking I need to use some epoxy or bedding compound to get good contact over all the breech face area.  What is the best way to correct this?  I thought about bedding the breech face area with JB Weld, but was worried it might crack out since it will be so thin. 

[northmn]

There are a couple of ways of dealing with this.  Sometimes if you use bedding you are better off to furhter undercut and then bed so that you do not have the thin bedding you are talking about.  Also bedding such as the ones popular with others such as Brownells addruglass, were designed to be used with fiberglass cloth which will not break or crack.  Another trick I use a lot is to use planes shavings and glue them in and some use epoxy mixed with sawdust where it don't show.  Other wood glues work as well.

DP
 

[Evil Monkey]

Bedding it with acraglass will work and I doubt that being thin will be a problem. I would rather set the barrel back 1/32". The only thing that would be a bit of an issue is if you already have the lugs/pins installed and even then, the lugs should be slotted enough for more than 1/32" of movement. Even 1/16" shouldn't have any negative effects on the lugs (if they are already done) or touch hole location. Bedding is the easy fix but, like most things, the easy route is not the best.

[LRB]

  In your case the easy route is the best. If you bed it, you will save yourself a lot of trouble, and have a perfect mateing of the breech, which will not change with humidity, and it will seal the open grain from oils water, ect. Just do it in a manner that the bedding compound does not show when the gun is fully assembled.

[Acer Saccharum]

My first choice would be to go with Cody's suggestion. But consider what's involved carefully.

Things to look out for: Lock screw interference. pins/lug elongation.

if it's a highly swamped barrel, you may have to re-fit the muzzle end a touch.

touch hole location/drum: if already installed, you may not be able to easily move the barrel back.

[B.Habermehl]

Keep the points Acer raised in mind. Most of us will try to avoid the use of epoxy  if possible for authenticity reasons. But there is really no sin in its use. If it will not show no biggie. I would rather know that a beginner used a bit of epoxy in a breech inlet than see a upset fellow some time down the road trying to fix splits or chip outs on a finished gun due to defects in the breech inletting. On the plus side epoxy does seal end grain better than anything I know of.

[eagle24]

My first choice would be to go with Cody's suggestion. But consider what's involved carefully.

Things to look out for: Lock screw interference. pins/lug elongation.

if it's a highly swamped barrel, you may have to re-fit the muzzle end a touch.

touch hole location/drum: if already installed, you may not be able to easily move the barrel back.

Yep, moving it back is not an option.  I thinned the tang down and it has a round screw boss and has been inletted.  Lockplate is also inletted, but thats all.  I can deal with it now and won't have any issues because I have'nt drilled and installed any of the screws yet.  The main concern I had with using epoxy of bedding compound was that it might want to come loose when I start shooting the rifle.  It will be very thin unless I do further undercut the breech face area of the stock.  Nothing will show unless the barrel is removed.  I don't like the idea of bedding it, but on the other hand, I don't how else to correct it easily.

[Ken G]

I use Acruglas.  It's avaialble from most Muzzleloader supply places like Track or muzzleloading building supply.  It's thicker than epoxy and will not run.  I use Johnson's Paste wax for a release agent rather than the blue stuff that comes with the kit.  Modeling clay is required for areas like the lock bolt hole and the breech end of the barrel.  If there is an undercut you will not get the barrel back out.  

The other option is to glue a thin slice of wood in and inlet again.

Ken

[Don Tripp]

I agree with LRB. Bedding is a very Good idea. I first did this with a Bean rifle that I made for the same reason you are. I got carried away inletting the breech. Now I bed the breech of most of my rifles and I think it makes them more accurate. I like Acra-Glass gel. I tried Micro-bed too but I don't think it's as good for this as Acra-Glass.

[AndyThomas]

I've used Acraglas Gel several times. It's somewhat flexible after it sets up. In places where it was thin enough to read through, it stayed in place well.

Take Ken's warning seriously, though, about filling the recess between the back of the barrel and the back of the breech plug with something. If you don't, it will be very difficult to get the barrel out, er, well, at least that's what Ken told me.    I've dripped some wax from a candle in there, as well as used clay and Plastic Wood.

Hope this helps,
Andy

[Ken G]

Hey, wax sounds like a good idea!  Never thought of using that.
Ken

[eagle24]

I got it done today.  Just took the barrel out and it turned out good.  I used Crayola Air Dry Clay to fill the backside of the breech plug, West Sysems epoxy thickened with fine sanding dust from the maple stock, and White Lithium grease to keep it from sticking.  Thanks for all the input and advice.

[Dphariss]

I got it done today.  Just took the barrel out and it turned out good.  I used Crayola Air Dry Clay to fill the backside of the breech plug, West Sysems epoxy thickened with fine sanding dust from the maple stock, and White Lithium grease to keep it from sticking.  Thanks for all the input and advice.

I use paste floor wax as release agent and used it to fill most places I don't want epoxy. Large cutouts I use  kids modeling clay. I have never had a piece stick when using paste wax. Plant I used to work in used this for production gun bedding and I bet 15-20K guns have been done this way. Does not tend to contaminate the wood or rub off (if allowed to dry a few minutes) like grease.
I would never used anything by Acra-Glas for bedding. I have had some problems with hobby store epoxy. Pretty weak and crumbly. Micro-Bed was OK but I much preferred Acra-glas Gel when both were available. It set harder, for me anyway. Brownell's sell dyes for epoxy that can be mixed to match almost anything.
Dan

[eagle24]

I would never used anything by Acra-Glas for bedding. I have had some problems with hobby store epoxy. Pretty weak and crumbly. Micro-Bed was OK but I much preferred Acra-glas Gel when both were available. It set harder, for me anyway. Brownell's sell dyes for epoxy that can be mixed to match almost anything.
Dan

Dan, I agree with not using the hobby store epoxy.  If you have'nt had experience with West Systems Epoxy, well it's a totally different beast from what you buy in a hobby store or Wally World.  I would have preferred to use acra-glas, but it was iffy whether it was necessary to even bed it.  I had good contact to the upper third of the breech and a good fit to the lug on the breech plug so I probably would have been OK to not do anything.  The other thing was I hated to spend $25 on the acra-glas for the small amount I needed and I wanted to get it out of the way yesterday.  I guess only time will tell, but I'll be real surprised if it comes out or gives me any trouble.

[perrybucsdad]

I know this is a long forgotten post, but when using the Johnson's wax as a release agent, how much are you using?  Are you just applying it like you would when waxing a car, or are you applying globs of it?  I would assume you wouldn't want to just glob it on as that would case the surface to not get flush, so just looking for a good explanation.

Thanks,

John

[eddillon]

I too am a believer in Accra-Glas gel.  I get it from Brownells.  Order black and brown dyes for use with Accra-Glas.  Those little jars of dye last a lifetime.  I use Accra-Glas to hold inlays.  Shouldn't say that but it works great.  I glass bedded a Hawken with it.  Tack driver!  I'll bet if the smiths of old had Accra-Glas, they would have used it.  Isee a few folks suggesting Micro Bed.  Absolutely superior product.  Didn't know it was still available.  Where can it be purchased?

[Jim Kibler]

If you're going to use epoxy to hold inlays, better use pins as well.  Movement of wood with moisture changes and time may well have some unwanted effects.

[eddillon]

Thanks, Jim.  point well taken.  I pin after epoxy.  Use brass oon brass inlays and soft steel in silver.

[perrybucsdad]

Okay, but does anyone know the answer on how much wax to use as a release agent?  Use just like I wax my car or more?

[Pete G.]

I usually put on a thick coat, let dry well and then recoat. The second coat probably disolves and mixes with the first and really does not supply any additional protection, but it makes me feel better.

[KLMoors]

I've done exactly what Pete G does and it has worked for me too.

[perrybucsdad]

Thanks guys... when you say thick coat, you don't mean to just GLOB it on though, right?  Just a heavy even coat.

[Dphariss]

Been away for a few months.  I got snowed under at work installing a new computer system and my spare time got eaten up shooting archery tournaments.  I'm kinda slow and it took me 3 days to notice most of you were moved over here from the old site.  Anyway, I am back working on a rifle I am building and have run into a problem I need to deal with.  The last couple of nights I spent inletting the lock.  When I removed the wood for the bolster I discovered that my breech is not as well fit at the breech face to the stock as I thought.  The upper part of the breech is tight to the stock but the surface where the breech face contacts the stock is undercut creating a small gap from nothing at the top to maybe 1/32" at the bottom.  I think the breech plug lug is making good contact, but was thinking I need to use some epoxy or bedding compound to get good contact over all the breech face area.  What is the best way to correct this?  I thought about bedding the breech face area with JB Weld, but was worried it might crack out since it will be so thin. 

Get some Acra-glas gel, may gunshops sell it. Check Brownells website if you must. Its designed for use with wood and will give better results than the vast majority of products you can find easily. I use paste wax for release agent. Make sure there are no places where the epoxy can get into and form a mechanical lock. Screw holes, notches etc.
I would only bed the breech end of the barrel.
Could you set the breech back slightly? This is another option.
Dan

[pathfinder]

Just enough to coat the barrel. Big glob's will conform the epoxy around the glob,leaving a void.

[wilkie]

You can use cut up fiberglass insulation added to epoxy glue to give it strength and to make it thicker.  Any glue by itself is not very strong if it is thick.