L&R Bailes lock information

[far55]

Hello all, I am a new poster to this site, although I have been lurking and learning since late 2013. I have been considering a Bailes lock for the smaller size compared to the Chambers Classic Ketland. I know from past post that I have read that improvements have been made in the L&R  locks from years past, but most builders here seem to like to do some extra tuning. I have attended some of the seminars at Dixon's in the past on lock tuning, but just wanted to ask for opinions and specifics on this lock before I make up my mind. I am planning on attending Dixon's next month.

Thanks to all, Roland

[T*O*F]

I don't know why TOTW insists on calling those locks "Bailes."  It just confuses everyone.  L&R specifically calls them "Mantons" as described in their literature:

John and Joseph: The Manton's were superb English gun makers of the highest order. Brothers, skilled artisans, craftsmen, trend setters and staunch business rivals. Crafting sporting arms, pistols, rifles and fouling pieces, each left an indelible legacy for all gun enthusiasts to admire and emulate. The Manton's competed successfully with Durs Egg, Henry Nock, John Twigg and other highly acclaimed contemporaries. L & R has recreated "THE MANTON LOCK". This superb firing mechanism is the culmination of exhaustive research and development

[Mike Brooks]

I'd go with the Chambers because it's a better quality lock. I can't imagine it would be too big for any style of rifle.

[smart dog]

Hi Roland,
I have quite a bit of experience with new and older L&R locks (including the "Bailes") and Chambers late Ketland.  New L&R locks use forged (they say folded) mainsprings.  The springs work OK but look cheap compared with the English springs usually found on those style locks.  They are not tapered at all so there is no "whippy" feel to them like good English locks.  They have good force but it is kind of dead force.  The fly is a tiny flat piece that fits on a post on the tumbler. Buy a replacement because you may lose the original when assembling and disassembling the lock.  Also note its position because it can easily be turned around and installed backward.  The tumbler has a stirrup for the mainspring but it is not permanently attached and is also easily lost or installed upside down or backward.  None of the bearing surfaces are polished and need considerable work during tuning. They can be made into good working locks but you have to work at it much more than with Chamber's locks.

dave     

[alyce-james]

far55 Sir; you would not be happy with the "Bailes small lock". The L&R would be a good lock, with extra attention, however you would be best satisfied with the "Chambers quality. Size needs to matter. Have a good week end. AJ.

[Bob Roller]

I don't know why TOTW insists on calling those locks "Bailes."  It just confuses everyone.  L&R specifically calls them "Mantons" as described in their literature:

John and Joseph: The Manton's were superb English gun makers of the highest order. Brothers, skilled artisans, craftsmen, trend setters and staunch business rivals. Crafting sporting arms, pistols, rifles and fouling pieces, each left an indelible legacy for all gun enthusiasts to admire and emulate. The Manton's competed successfully with Durs Egg, Henry Nock, John Twigg and other highly acclaimed contemporaries. L & R has recreated "THE MANTON LOCK". This superb firing mechanism is the culmination of exhaustive research and development

Until I bought the Bailes lock moulds in 1978 or 79 that style lock WAS called the Bailes and the moulds were so marked
At one time I think Ron Long had them and when I got them I traded 4 completed locks for the plate,cock and frizzen moulds
because the internal parts were so flimsy they were worthless. I developed my own mechanism for this lock and later used a very
similar one in the parts I bought from L&R. I had an original Nock flintlock from the right side of a Nock double barreled shot gun
that Lynton McKenzie sent to me for study when he heard I had got the Bailes moulds.It 99% identical so there is a THIRD
designation for this style lock.It is a neat little lock and has a lot of potential as a custom lock by seems to vary a lot as a production
lock.I gave these lock moulds to Les Barber who does assembly work for Larry Zornes and R.E.Davis and he still has them but so far
no new locks have been made from them that I know of. I doubt if I will revive this lock again and will make,perhaps a few Hawken caplocks and triggers per month,3 to 5 and maybe a few small double set triggers.....maybe.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

far55 Sir; you would not be happy with the "Bailes small lock". The L&R would be a good lock, with extra attention, however you would be best satisfied with the "Chambers quality. Size needs to matter. Have a good week end. AJ.

A PS to my just posted note. MOST of the Bailes locks I made went to a gunmaker in Germany for target pistols of the Boutet
pattern. At that time the Germans would pay for a quality lock and our people wanted them for low prices.

Bob Roller

[wattlebuster]

Chambers

[Nate McKenzie]

For product and service you just can't beat Chambers.

[Bob Roller]

It's a wonder L&R is still in business..........

I've used quite a number of the L&R external parts for the Manton/Egg/Ashmore locks and they seem to
be OK. The mechanisms need retooled and dimensions tightened for smoother operation and reliability.
They are using forged mainsprings and have been for a while and the frizzens are now 52-100 bearing
steel which is an improvement. The mechanisms I made were quite active and hard on frizzens but so far
nothing reported regarding failures. A recent caller from Kentucky said he had put about 1400 shots on his
Manton/Bailes and it still looked and worked good.I KNOW that moulds can be made that are accurate to the
point that the parts can be assembled and the lock used. Ruger,T/C/Smith&Wesson and others use this
quality of castings every day on complex guns. I know that this kind of tooling is COSTLY and probably
way out of reach for a small shop to finance. I certainly can't afford it and prefer my own antiquated ways
to do what I want to do in lock work. I view the external parts as a chassis and then fabricate a useable
engine to go into it.The idea seems to have worked.

Bob Roller

[Joe S.]

Bob I was kinda being sarcastic, seems every time L&R comes up they get bashed.While I'm far from a expert the locks I  have seen from them have worked fine. No doubt yours as well as Chamber's are of higher quality.

[far55]

Thanks to all who responded. I know the quality of the Chambers products and value the advice from the craftsmen on this site. I actually need to purchase 2 locks, one for a southern mountain style rifle and one for a slim Driesbach  from Knob Mountain that somehow followed me home from the show at Lewisburg this past winter. The photos of the upper Susquehanna guns on this site have been a great help in getting to know  this school of building.   Thanks again, Roland

[Bob Roller]

Thanks to all who responded. I know the quality of the Chambers products and value the advice from the craftsmen on this site. I actually need to purchase 2 locks, one for a southern mountain style rifle and one for a slim Driesbach  from Knob Mountain that somehow followed me home from the show at Lewisburg this past winter. The photos of the upper Susquehanna guns on this site have been a great help in getting to know  this school of building.   Thanks again, Roland

Someone at Friendship may have one of my "Bailes"locks to sell. I just today sent the last one
I made to a man in Kansas and have two more to finish for a local man. The cost of castings as
I got them from L&R is now about $110 including postage,add another $150 for the labor to make a
custom mechanism and that makes it by U.S standards, an expensive lock.
Bill Cox and others have told me that the cost from the foundries has increased quite a bit and the
price hike was unavoidable.

Bob Roller

[Turtle]

This is one experience about one Bailes lock, and from a rookie,  so take that into consideration. I used an old L+R Bailes on my .32 squirrel rifle. It is among the best preforming locks I have used and it's size really fits the slim 3/4" barrel and stock. It performs much better then the many small Siler Locks I have had and shot with.
                       2 Turtle cents
                     

[bkb]

I'll have to agree with Turtle, I too used this lock on a 3/4" 40cal. and it works fine, But mine is left-handed, so I have used a lot of L&R lock simply because they are about the only company to make a left-handed lock.  Every one that I have used have always worked fine ,no problems at all.

[Daryl]

Here's mine - works very well indeed.

 

[BOB HILL]

I guess I'm very lucky I've used many L&R locks over the years and I've never had any complaints. Bill and Tim have always been great folks to do business with and I'm sure if I or anyone else had a problem with one of their products they would do whatever it took to please.......Bob
 

[JTR]

Good question. L&R sure seems to get bashed around here, but I've had a L&R Durs Egg flint lock in a rifle for 35 years and never had a single problem with it. I also have one of Bob Rollers' modified L&R Manton flinters which works fine, and another standard Manton, which works fine also, but with a different feel than Bob's lock.

Maybe just the luck of the draw, I don't know.

But I do know that I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.

John

[Dennis Glazener]

I have had 3 and all three were very weak sparking. I heated the frizzen in a tin of sand and let cool. Forget the temperature but it was some better, enough to get by with. The second one I did the same thing but it didn't help sent it back to L&R and they evidently sent it to Larry Zorn. He sent it to me with a note that he THOUGHT he had it right but if it still was a problem send it back and he would put a new frizzen on it. It was fine. The third one was the worst of the three, I was telling Troy Roope about it and he told me to send it to him, he thought they were the best locks going, used them in all his target rifles. That is the lock he was testing for sparks when he accidentally blew his priming tool up along with his thumb/hand. He had fixed the lock when I got it back. I am not exactly sure what he did to fix it.

Once the locks were sparking well I loved them, just hate to have to dicker with them.
Dennis

 

[wattlebuster]

You should not have to dicker with them. Something that does not work right should not leave the factory/shop till it does

[Acer Saccharum]

I've had several Manton or Bailes, and find they can be VERY fast, once tuned up.

[Bob Roller]

I have had 3 and all three were very weak sparking. I heated the frizzen in a tin of sand and let cool. Forget the temperature but it was some better, enough to get by with. The second one I did the same thing but it didn't help sent it back to L&R and they evidently sent it to Larry Zorn. He sent it to me with a note that he THOUGHT he had it right but if it still was a problem send it back and he would put a new frizzen on it. It was fine. The third one was the worst of the three, I was telling Troy Roope about it and he told me to send it to him, he thought they were the best locks going, used them in all his target rifles. That is the lock he was testing for sparks when he accidentally blew his priming tool up along with his thumb/hand. He had fixed the lock when I got it back. I am not exactly sure what he did to fix it.

Once the locks were sparking well I loved them, just hate to have to dicker with them.
Dennis

 

I don't know how many of these locks I made a new mechanism for but with the addition of the 52-100
frizzens they performed quite well and so far no complaints.Bill Cox told me recently that increased
foundry costs forced a price increase in the external parts. The modifications I made would now make
these locks cost prohibitive at about $255 each+USPS flat rate.

Bob Roller

[Captchee]

 Through the years I have used locks from many different maker . With the acceptation of  a couple from Bob , I  cannot say I have never had an issue at one time or another with any other maker .
 I have also cussed the quality of castings  at times from   L&R , Davis and Chambers . though i must state not to oftem do i  those issues from Jims locks .
 I have found Jim Chambers , L&R and Davis  all to be good to work with .
  I can think of only 1 time I had an L&R  with a weak main spring  and that spring was a replacement. I did have a frizzen  snamp in half one time . It was on an older lock . Been on the rifle for years . L&R replaced it no charge ..
 IMO  with a little extra work , they  can be a very nice lock  .
 Strait out of the box , they are reasonable  and give good service .
Plus they have a very good selection  of locks  not offered by other makers . Thus with costs rising  i can see why the cost of an L&R would  be  near the range of  the asking price of other makers who  provide a more finished product .

[Mike Brooks]

L&R
I guess it depends  what you're doing. If you're doing this for a living you don't have time to make a marginal lock into a good lock. I absolutely detest the flys on these locks. The casting quality of the internals is marginal...they work but just. Assembly is a little willy-nilly, screws aren't always at a 90 to the plate, again they usually work but just. The cocks are usually MASHED unceremoniously onto the tumbler, sometimes they are nigh on impossible to remove and when you do the tumbler neck usually breaks off and stays in the cock. Springs break at inopportune times. The styling of most all of the models is a bit wonky, they're just a bit off from what they should be, unless you close one eye a squint just right.  Other than that they are great locks.....

Davis
 I only use about three models of these, the early english, the colonial, and the late english. The only problem I have run across lately is a run of trouble with the early english. The first one had a chipped full cock notch, I grabbed another I had and it wouldn't stay at full cock. Sent them both back and Tim sent me a couple new locks and paid the freight. One other annoying thing is the screw that holds the cock to the tumbler is so short only two threads engage. It's REAL easy to strip those out. The mainspring on the two big locks I use have a real funky bend to them but they work well. I think several of their locks use that same spring which originated with their jeager lock. Lock styling is good.

Chambers
 Heads above other lock quality. The only problem  I constantly had was the assembler of the virginia lock would grind the bolster hollow. Very annoying. But, this problem no longer exists, they are all ground flat these days. Only other problem would be the rare chipped sear nose or maybe a rare broke mainspring.  I like the big #8 screws that are used for assembly. Lock styling is excellent. If you want to buy a lock and chuck it in a gun with no fiddling around, this is the company for you.

Of course I only base the above on my own 36 years of fooling with this stuff. Your experience may vary.

[Acer Saccharum]

Thanks, Mike. That is very helpful.