Pouring a nosecap

[Mauser06]

Many of you have far more experience than I do... therefore I probably won't have advice to give in the gun building world until I learn more...


But..i do have advice on pouring a nosecap....


Do NOT use modeling clay as a mold..or a dam...or anywhere your molten pewter will contact.....


Apparently modeling clay melts.



I built a form from card stock as you guys tutorials show...

I have a half stock and didnt wanna put the barrel and entry pipe in..

Easy...i will fill the voids with modeling clay...



Well...it was like a volcano ...and I used black clay....


It's a mess...lol.  It scrapes off..but I'm going to have to go over the entire nose piece before I attempted it again....


So my advice.....don't use modeling clay anywhere your molten metal will contact....



I wonder if baking clay would work better?   I am guessing it would bake and harden...not melt?   But I'm not sure...

[PPatch]

What is "baking clay," do you have a product in mind?

dave

[Mauser06]

The clay I used was non-drying modeling/sculpting clay...




Then there is clay you shape and bake...just a hunch that it won't melt...i will buy a bit and test it prior to using it...

[mparker762]

Then there is clay you shape and bake...just a hunch that it won't melt...i will buy a bit and test it prior to using it...

I think that stuff is actually a plastic.  I used it once for a non-gun-related project, and it certainly smelled (to high heaven) like plastic when baking it. I don't think it'll melt, but it'll likely outgas some.

[Mauser06]

The model g clay I tried stunk too....



Not sure what to use to dam up the entry pipe area...


I need something though...


I thought the clay would work slick as snot...i poured it and all was well and I smiled a second...no leaks or anything...then the black molten volcano started lol....

I should have videod it...it was an impressive mess...

The clay mixed with the pewter and didn't stick to anything either lol..

What a mess...

[Chowmi]

To dam up the entry pipe area, use a dowel the size of the hole, or just under, and wrap it in aluminum foil before you put it in.  Leave a bit exposed so you can pull it out after. 
For the dam, use card stock.  I used a cut out piece of manila filing folder, wrapped twice around the forestock and barrel, then wrapped in blue painters tape. 

Here is the dam and dowel all set up ready to go:

IMG_3315.jpg by chowmif16, on Flickr

I couldn't get the card stock to conform to some of the contour between the top of the fore stock and the barrel, so I sanded a small wedge of wood to the contour, then inserted it inside the dam to stop the flow of pewter.  Worked like a champ.  Here is a photo of creating the wood block to the contour.

IMG_3312.jpg by chowmif16, on Flickr

Here is the end result, with no pewter getting anywhere it shouldn't.  You can see the dowel still in, with the tin foil. 

IMG_3321.jpg by chowmif16, on Flickr

Cheers,
Norm

[Scota4570]

Just poured a nose cap today.  I use heavy duty aluminum foil and electrical tape.  If there are voids or wrinkles use a big soldering iron to add or smooth out the pewter.  I have also used linotype alloy, it works great. 

[Mauser06]

You guys are awesome!!!!



I appreciate the info!    That aughta help for the next attempt!

[Tim Crosby]

What is "baking clay," do you have a product in mind?

dave

Dave, I use this stuff all the time for pewter inlays on hawk handles and when I make cones to turn horn tips. It is an oven bake clay, I found it at Hobby Lobby or Michaels. Brand name
"Sculpey III". It does not melt or shrink and bakes from the heat of the Pewter.


   Tim

[PPatch]

What is "baking clay," do you have a product in mind?

dave

Dave, I use this stuff all the time for pewter inlays on hawk handles and when I make cones to turn horn tips. It is an oven bake clay, I found it at Hobby Lobby or Michaels. Brand name
"Sculpey III". It does not melt or shrink and bakes from the heat of the Pewter.


   Tim

Thanks Tim. A bit of Googling finds that "baking clay" is a PVC based substance with no relation to actual clay. And that means I know nothing about it.

dave

[Hungry Horse]

 I fill the ramrod hole with a slightly oversized dowel, that is long enough to aid in its removal, but not so long it gets in the way. I sharpen the end in an old schoolhouse crank pencil sharpener, that I have mounted on the wall in my shop, so the fit in the ramrod hole, and forestock are good and tight. I use Manila folder stock for my form, and cap the top of the barrel with a short piece of wood cut with a barrel channel just like the stock. I wrap the bottom end of the dam with annealed binding wire, and wind it tight enough to create a slight dent in the forestock. I then wrap the outside with duct tape. Rubbing the wood that will be encapsulated with a carpenters pencil will help the pewter flow better. A red hot bolt a little smaller than the bore, slipped in the muzzle before the pour will help keep the pewter from solidifying before the pour is complete. I prefer pure tin for nose caps, but also use lead free pewter, or solder, when pure tin isn't available.

  Hungry Horse

[Mauser06]

Tim, with the baking clay have you had molten pewter directly contact it? 

Could you make a mold from the baking clay and fill it with pewter and not have the issues I did? Lol.



I see Norm mounted the entry pipe prior to pour...maybe I aughta do that...i may be over thinking the process lol...

[gwill]

For those who may not have seen it there's an excellent post in the tutorial section on how to pour a pewter nosecap by Ken G.

[Mauser06]

So I put my entry pipe in...put in a piece of hickory ramrod...used card stock to make my mold and tightened it down as much as possible...which turned out to be a little too tight..

I had 1 small dribble come out and hot the tang and that was it...




(Don't mind the odd color..that's from the clay disaster and I wanted to leave it go till I got the nosepiece poured..is cleans right off..).

You can see I got pewter clear through one drill hole..it's on there solid and doesn't move or anything...
The bottom of the cut is deeply undercut too..i cut the inlay 1/8" or so..and made my undercut pretty aggressive to lock it in place...seemed to work..




I had lots of big "pores"...but got a decent pour I guess..




I have a little cleaning up to do...but not a ton.. everything above the ramrod end comes off..that's the length the piece needs to be...






I spent a. Little bit of time with a soldering iron and thin pieces of pewter building up the pores I had...

The only issue area left it the top edges where it meets the barrel..i had my mold too tight I didn't get pewter there..not a big deal..i can figure it out..


I used a pretty cheap file and it's filing pretty nicely..not clogging...and it's harder than I thought pewter would be....

With the soldering iron I was able to build it up and will file it back down to its final shape..


Hope the nickel silver entry pipe and pewter nosepiece look alright...the rest of the furniture is going to be blued..

I thought the pewter nosepiece and nickel silver entry pipe would be a nice accent of sorts....

I'm learning...and it seems to be coming along for my first build...


I will post more this next weekend when I am off hopefully...i plan to get it finished so I can oil it through my next work week..I'm only able to mess around after work every few days during my work week so it will be the best time to oil the stock and it'll have a few days to dry between coats...

[Hungry Horse]

It appears you heated the pewter well beyond the melting point. the large pores are the result of either boiling the pewter, of the hot metal creating a reaction with something used in the dam material. I never put a ramrod pipe in place when pouring a nose cap, it usually creates a gap somewhere that allows pewter to go where it can be the most troublesome.

  Hungry Horse

[Mauser06]

Could be so...first time I put a took pick in it scorched immediately...i let it cool to the point that I could leave it in there a couple seconds and it not burn at all...

I also left the printed side of the card stock toward the pewter..i think I should have left the plain side in...


I think it's better to salvage it opposed to try to remove and repour it...



Lessons learned lol....

[Tim Crosby]

Tim, with the baking clay have you had molten pewter directly contact it? 

Could you make a mold from the baking clay and fill it with pewter and not have the issues I did? Lol.



I see Norm mounted the entry pipe prior to pour...maybe I aughta do that...i may be over thinking the process lol...

 Yes I have, there is no popping or splattering. TC

[P.W.Berkuta]

Your pour is way too hot and the stuff you are using as a dam is out-gassing causing the voids -- reduce heat and try to use something else that does not out-gas so much. This is a pour with just file folder paper only - I use the same stuff on rifle nose caps.

[Mauser06]

Yikes!!  I didn't realize it's possible to get such a clean pour lol....


I used card stock off sand paper packs..it was handy in my work area...

But thought the printed/waxed side would be better...that was a poor choice lol..



I will see how salvaging it goes...if it's not working well I will repour it...so far I have a decent build up and think it'll file cleanly and be properly shaped...

[Tim Crosby]

 Just in case you haven't seen this:

  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4669.0

 Tim C.

[Mauser06]

Thanx!   I did...and gave it my best attempt lol....



Wondering if it wouldn't be easier and best to repour...i don't know how hard it'd be to remove....


I am thinking I can save it though...

[Dphariss]

Barrel and a rod must be in place.

NOTHING with ANY water or volatiles can be in contact with the molten metal. Period. So any tape etc must be BELOW the metal line.
Go to office depot (or maybe wall mart) and buy a ream of heavy cardstock. I also use it to pad vise jaws at times.
If you can find it buy about 3-4 feet of 3/8 surgical tubing.
Heat the barrel at the area of the pour too hot to touch.
Put barrel and all keys/pins in place. Put a rod in the hole (if no entery pipe) or in the entry pipe. It MUST FIT TIGHT. A slightly tapered rod is fine for this.
Wrap 3-4 layers of cardstock. Start at the top flat or one beside it. Wrap it pretty tight. Be sure that the casting will be an inch longer or a little more, than the finished tip.
Tape the loose end down with masking tape. Now make some 3 sided pieces of wood smaller  ones for where the side flat enters the barrel channel (actually tape these in place BEFORE wrapping in cardstock tape where the metal will not reach the tape it just to keep these in place till the cardstock is on make these as long as you like).  Larger ones to go on either side of the entry pipe (no longer than the pipe and a little shorter is better) if so equipped.  BEHIND where the cutout is for the pewter tip.
Wrap several, 4 at least, wraps of  the surgical tubing around the assembly just behind the cutout for the pewter Fairly tight. Tuck the loose end under the last wrap or two to hold it.
I use Silva-Brite 100 solder. Its actually non-toxic pewter. I use a stainless ladle from wally world bending the handel as needed.  Heat about 1/2 cup (I usually use a 1 pound roll) of pewter. Heat until a clean piece of pine used to stir away the dross gets toasty in 2-3 seconds. Its OK if it smokes slightly in more seconds. If it chars in a few seconds its too hot. Once happy with the temp make the pour. Pour it aggressively too sloe causes flaws. There will be some steam from the wood causing bubbles. Refill as needed as it bubbles.
Let it cool a minute or 5 and then unwrap.
Properly done this works everytime. I have done literally hundreds on 1874 Sharps and a number on MLs... Used to do them in bunches at Shiloh. 3-5 at a time.
If you have doubts or the barrel channel is "loose" put a strip of masking tape around the barrel behind the tip location.
Pouring metal and having it run into the key/pin areas may well permanently install the barrel.
Dan

[lost arrow 801]

I've been having   trouble with this very thing. So far I messed up a knife bolster and a tomahawk  inlay, not sure the term the wrap around kind. I've been using card stock and it's working fine but it seems to break apart  when finished like in kinda clumps.

If 7th happens  again I'l take some photos

[Mauser06]

Thanx for the write-up dphariss!  That's awesome!  I appreciate it!   



Guess I should have practiced a few pours lol...


No time to work on it today but I looked at it a bit...still think I'm better off "welding" more on where needed and filing it back down opposed to trying to remove it and starting over..what I started filing looks good..smooth and solid..

[thimble rig]

Have some patience you will figure it out.We learn by making mistakes.Iknow  I ve learned a lot.,he he.Kepp up the good work.