Assembling the Kibler Dolep lock castings

[Hemo]

I've had Jim Kibler's Dolep lock castings sitting in a drawer in my shop untouched for some time. I keenly wanted to go to Mark Silver's lock assembly class at WKU earlier this month, but couldn't get the time off. Therefore, I'm going to launch blindly into this project, never having put together a lock from castings.
Shortly after buying the castings, I asked Jim about the screw sizes on the original (previous post on this site). Apparently the original had multiple different sizes of screws.
Obviously, I'd like to avoid buying multiple different sized screws, taps and drills for this project, and wondered if anyone who has finished one of these can tell me if there's a single (or two) sizes of screws that have worked.
Also, what size drill bits/reamers have people used for the tumbler holes in the lock plate and bridle?
On my tumbler casting, the large and small axles do not appear to follow the same exact axis. I'm about to drop a few hundred bucks on a small Harbor Freight mini metal lathe to help even things out, unless someone tells me it's a bad idea.
Thanks for your input. I'm sure i'll be posting more questions before this is done.

Gregg

[Acer Saccharum]

It's never a bad idea to have a lathe.

[James Rogers]

Sent yout an email Greg

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You will not regret buying a lathe - even a small inexpensive one.  You can easily create all your own screws for this project, and for many hereafter.  But you will also need to buy taps and dies...no getting around it.  Even commercial screws need to be adjusted with dies to work in projects like this one.

[KC]

It would be a great thread if you posted progress from time to time. I'd like to see a good lock build from a set of castings.

[Hemo]

Thanks for your responses, all.
KC, I'll plan to post some progress pictures, even in the event that I meet with disaster. As I said, I've never done this before!

Gregg

[smart dog]

Hi Gregg,
I've now built up two sets of Jim's castings.  It is not the easiest build because there is very little room for error.  The parts are closely packed inside the lock plate. I used 5-40 screws for all the internal screws, and 8-32 for the frizzen and top jaw screws. You may be able to use number 6 screw sizes for the internals but use 6-40 or 6-48 if you do. One difficulty I had with both locks is that Jim filled all the main holes on the original before casting.  That is good but the filler gave some of the holes an irregular outline on the surface.  That makes locating the center of the original hole difficult something particularly true for the tumbler hole, upon which everything else depends.  Jim was thinking about doing a blueprint of the hole positions, which would be very helpful.  Also Gregg, tuning the lock is a bit of a challenge because when fired outside of the lock inlet, it easily will slip into half cock.  It requires the trigger to keep the sear away from the half cock notch.  There is no fly in the tumbler.  One more thing Gregg, be very careful when grinding off the flashing on the back of the top jaw. Buried in that flashing is a small triangular lug that fits into a groove on the flint cock and guides the jaw. It is not the best arrangement because it allows some side to side play in the top jaw because of the triangular cross section. It would be better if the lug and groove were rectangular in cross section like on Chambers round-faced English lock but that is how the original lock was made. The lock is a very good sparker when finished but keep in mind, it is a late 17th century lock and flintlocks were improved during the 18th century.

Good luck,

dave   

[Sidelock]

I was in that class you mentioned.  I built a different lock than the one you have.  However I do know that the tumbler hole on both locks was the same @ .302 used a N reamer into a M drill bit hole to accomplish this.  Turning that tumbler on a lathe is a must.  Also a good idea to use a bushing thru your tumbler hole to spot the correct location on the bridle for the back axle of the tumbler.  Tom Snyder up in Michigan made the screw sets for the students in the class, you could contact him about them, he is on this forum at times.  Sorry to report but, there really is no way around it to build one of these locks from castings you must have access to a lathe and a mill, or at least a drill press with less than .002" of run out, a bunch of nice sharp files and a lot of patience.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Yes, a lathe is essential for truing up the tumbler.  However, I also used aluminum oxide powder and oil to lap fit the tumbler to the lock plate hole. Another detail is that the ping hole for the mainspring is a blind hole. If you look closely at the lock plate casting you will notice a little round bulge below the decorative ring under the pan. That shows you how close the pin hole comes to the surface of the lock plate on the original lock.

dave

[James Rogers]

Two of us had to go smaller than that on the Dolep tumblers to get the shafts turned down cleanly and trued. I would wait until you get your tumbler turned prior to getting reamers, etc. I will try to post our reamer sizes, etc. later as I can't remember ATM.

[James Rogers]

Just checked with Phillip Smith and this is what he remembered about the reamers we used.

"We used a 9/32" reamer which is .2812 for the plate, and I had a decimal reamer that is   
.176 for the bridle hole but a number 17 or 11/64" reamer might be more common and possibly less expensive and only slightly smaller than what we used. "

[Rolf]

Great thread!! I have two Dolep sets to assemble and the info here is a big help.  I hope all  Builders who have assembled these kits chime in.


Best regards
Rolf

[Bob Roller]

What does this Dolep lock set look like??
The .2812 is one I have used for years on different lock
tumblers and the small bearing thru the bridle is a 9/64
reamer,.1406.

Bob Roller

[Phillip Smith]

I was able to be in Marks class at Bowling Green and found it to be a great asset not only for the lock class but for all aspects of gun making. I would highly recommend the classes for anyone if your schedule will possibly allow it.
  To start with don't get to caught up on the holes being filled it is better that they are filled because of differential shrinkage. The lock plate needs to be straitened first then cleanup can begin. Mark had us purchase pillar files and they are a great file, I went with the Grobet files the main workhorse being an eight inch in the 00 cut. Jim has done a great job on these castings an build up has been added to help compensate for shrinkage but you don't need to completely clean all the casting surface on the initial clean up. Hacksaws, grinders, and belt sanders can be used to help remove some of the gates but understand where you need to stop and always leave some to clean up with your files. Locating the tumbler hole is first. That is done by locating the center in the cock and measuring from that center point to the top flat surface of the lower jaw of the cock being sure that your not measuring the raised area around where the top jaw screw will be threaded into the cock. With that distance measure where the frizzen will fit the pan when closed back to the area where the tumbler will be located and scribe an arc in that area. The tumbler on this period lock should be at least centered on the plate preferably a little above center and the original is set a little above center. To help aid in this you can go ahead and drill a small hole in the cock where you located the center axis. Place the cock on the plate at what would be the half cock position and line up the perimeter of the body of the cock with the flat area where the cock sets on the plate. You should be very close to the scribe line that you made measuring from where the base of the frizzen contacts the pan. Determine a center point and mark it on the plate. This can be done by using the drill bit that you drilled the hole in the cock with. (With your hand not a machine, this is still a reference point at this time) To check this location move the cock to the rest position and line it up on your center point. Look to see that the lower jaw is clear of the fence. Make adjustments if necessary. In the class we were able to use a 1 to 1 ratio in measuring the cock as mentioned earlier. There is clearly a lot more to this but there is plenty of work to be done just to get to that point.

Phillip Smith

[Rolf]

What does this Dolep lock set look like??
The .2812 is one I have used for years on different lock
tumblers and the small bearing thru the bridle is a 9/64
reamer,.1406.

Bob Roller

Check smart dog's thread   http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=38834.0

Best regards
Rolf

[Bob Roller]

What does this Dolep lock set look like??
The .2812 is one I have used for years on different lock
tumblers and the small bearing thru the bridle is a 9/64
reamer,.1406.

Bob Roller

Check smart dog's thread   http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=38834.0


Rolf,
Many thanks. I apparently had forgot about this February posting I made on this lock.
Not my style of lock but that's not important.

Bob Roller

Best regards
Rolf

[James Rogers]

I was able to be in Marks class at Bowling Green and found it to be a great asset not only for the lock class but for all aspects of gun making. I would highly recommend the classes for anyone if your schedule will possibly allow it.
  To start with don't get to caught up on the holes being filled it is better that they are filled because of differential shrinkage. The lock plate needs to be straitened first then cleanup can begin. Mark had us purchase pillar files and they are a great file, I went with the Grobet files the main workhorse being an eight inch in the 00 cut. Jim has done a great job on these castings an build up has been added to help compensate for shrinkage but you don't need to completely clean all the casting surface on the initial clean up. Hacksaws, grinders, and belt sanders can be used to help remove some of the gates but understand where you need to stop and always leave some to clean up with your files. Locating the tumbler hole is first. That is done by locating the center in the cock and measuring from that center point to the top flat surface of the lower jaw of the cock being sure that your not measuring the raised area around where the top jaw screw will be threaded into the cock. With that distance measure where the frizzen will fit the pan when closed back to the area where the tumbler will be located and scribe an arc in that area. The tumbler on this period lock should be at least centered on the plate preferably a little above center and the original is set a little above center. To help aid in this you can go ahead and drill a small hole in the cock where you located the center axis. Place the cock on the plate at what would be the half cock position and line up the perimeter of the body of the cock with the flat area where the cock sets on the plate. You should be very close to the scribe line that you made measuring from where the base of the frizzen contacts the pan. Determine a center point and mark it on the plate. This can be done by using the drill bit that you drilled the hole in the cock with. (With your hand not a machine, this is still a reference point at this time) To check this location move the cock to the rest position and line it up on your center point. Look to see that the lower jaw is clear of the fence. Make adjustments if necessary. In the class we were able to use a 1 to 1 ratio in measuring the cock as mentioned earlier. There is clearly a lot more to this but there is plenty of work to be done just to get to that point.

Phillip Smith

Thanks for taking the time to run thru that. I couldn't have listed that process better if I had cut and pasted from notes and I know you pulled that out of your head.
Greg, keep us posted on your progress.