Author Topic: Alternatives to cast locks?  (Read 7369 times)

Offline Scota4570

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Alternatives to cast locks?
« on: June 15, 2016, 10:11:47 PM »
My current project uses a cap lock that cost me $130.  Not a "cheapie." As sold it was functional.  Cast texture remained on the working surfaces.  A grinding wheel or dremil was used for fitting and it was crudely done.  The first tumbler broke during inletting, it was brittle.  The replacement tumbler has a chip out of the half cock notch.   The tumbler is loose in the lockplate.  The lock plate had cheasie faux engraving that I removed, the plate was warped. The screw holes in the plate appear to be cast.  The area aound the screw holes are not crisp.   The sear notches and nose were rough and not properly fitted.  The sear spring was too short and exerted too much force on the sear.  Bla-Bla-Bla.  

Yes I am picky.  I spend so much time on my rifles that I want them to be 100% right.  I don't mind paying more or doing it myself.  

What are my options?

Buy a hammer and build from scratch? Actually I may try that just for the experience.  Most of the parts are pretty simple, it should not be terrible difficult.    

How about buying casting sets?  Cast parts give me the willies. The quality is not there as compared to forged or machined parts, IMHO.   I am willing to try but only if I CAN produce a top quality lock from the raw materials provided. Suggestions?

Does anyone make forged lock parts, parts sets, or complete locks?  
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 10:31:41 PM by Scota4570 »

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2016, 10:22:05 PM »
 If they did you probably wouldn't pay the price for them.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2016, 10:30:11 PM »
Hi Jerry,

Your work is top notch.  Are you assembling your own parts set? Or? 

Should I be sticking with certain lock makers that take more pride in their product than others?

Scot

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2016, 10:37:45 PM »
You can simply purchase a "hammer" and do as I do...buy a tumbler for your lock from Chambers.  The tumbler was a problem for me re making the lock I wanted, but purchasing one made the rest doable.  I also have used their "gunmaker's " lock to fashion a percussion/conversion lock.  That's another option.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2016, 10:50:22 PM »
My current project uses a cap lock that cost me $130.  Not a "cheapie." As sold it was functional.  Cast texture remained on the working surfaces.  A grinding wheel or dremil was used for fitting and it was crudely done.  The first tumbler broke during inletting, it was brittle.  The replacement tumbler has a chip out of the half cock notch.   The tumbler is loose in the lockplate.  The lock plate had cheasie faux engraving that I removed, the plate was warped. The screw holes in the plate appear to be cast.  The area aound the screw holes are not crisp.   The sear notches and nose were rough and not properly fitted.  The sear spring was too short and exerted too much force on the sear.  Bla-Bla-Bla.  

Yes I am picky.  I spend so much time on my rifles that I want them to be 100% right.  I don't mind paying more or doing it myself.  

What are my options?

Buy a hammer and build from scratch? Actually I may try that just for the experience.  Most of the parts are pretty simple, it should not be terrible difficult.    

How about buying casting sets?  Cast parts give me the willies. The quality is not there as compared to forged or machined parts, IMHO.   I am willing to try but only if I CAN produce a top quality lock from the raw materials provided. Suggestions?

Does anyone make forged lock parts, parts sets, or complete locks?  

I can and have made decent quality locks but am not taking any new work.
When I get my energy level back to what it was before 23 December I might consider
making some more locks. If I do I will post here.
If you have experience with machine tools like milling machines and lathes,drill
press and bench grinder and can locate proper materials I say go for it.

Bob Roller

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2016, 11:01:13 PM »
Bob,

I have two lathes, a mill and pretty much all the other tools I could ever need.  I think I will make a lock, to get it out of my system.

I may end up and maybe appreciating the store bought ones more after i make one. 

What about mainsprings?  They are a pain to make.  Any vendors of cast springs I should consider? 

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2016, 11:04:18 PM »
If you have a tumbler model with good geometry to copy, that will make your life soooo much easier.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2016, 12:52:36 AM »
Bob,

I have two lathes, a mill and pretty much all the other tools I could ever need.  I think I will make a lock, to get it out of my system.

I may end up and maybe appreciating the store bought ones more after i make one. 

What about mainsprings?  They are a pain to make.  Any vendors of cast springs I should consider? 

Mainsprings are not really hard but then I am looking back on many years of making them.
I use 1075 and have no reported troubles with them,Same for the sear spring.
I know of no cat spring vendors but I would think Chambers or Davis would sell one.
As stated many times,for me the idea of having a foundry in charge of my quality control
is frightening. ONE bad batch of parts made into locks and my reputation would be ruined.
Ask L.C.Rice about that one.They were snookered by various foundries form the outset
and I'll say again,they did NOT start out with the idea of marketing an inferior product
to the muzzle loading builders.

Bob Roller

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2016, 12:54:31 AM »
Where are you buying 1075 spring stock, Brownells?

Offline davec2

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2016, 01:52:29 AM »
Scota,

I have posted about this before and it might be worth exploring.  In the aerospace industry (and in the modern gun industry) cast parts are routinely "HIPPED".  HIP stands for Hot Isostatic Pressing.  The cast parts are placed in a furnace, heated to near the melting point and subjected to about 15 thousand pounds per square inch of pressure with argon gas.  The result is the cast parts come out of the process with the density and nearly the same mechanical properties as forged parts.  Some of the houses that do this will offer to n"piggyback" you parts with another customers parts and you pay only by the pound, etc.

Here is some information from another forum: 

"HIP stands for "Hot Isostatic Pressing", and it is essentially the simultaneous application of heat and high pressure to the cast part. In the HIP process, a high temperature furnace is enclosed within a pressure vessel. The work pieces are heated and an inert gas, generally argon, applies uniform pressure. The temperature, pressure, and process time are all controlled to achieve the optimum material properties desired. HIP is widely used in the casting industry to remove the internal porosity generated during the casting process. This results in improved strength, ductility and fatigue life of the casting. The rejection rate of the finished castings is reduced and the mechanical properties of the parts are more consistent. Further, HIP parameters can be established to minimize subsequent heat treatment requirements."

Pine Tree Castings does all the modern gun investment castings for Ruger (they may even be a subsidiary).  At any rate, most, if not all, of Ruger's gun castings go through a HIPing cycle to improve the material properties of the castings.

At any rate, if you are looking for better parts without the trouble of making them all from bar stock, I would suggest looking into HIPing a set of good castings.  Here is a link that will explain a little more..............

http://kittyhawkinc.com
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 01:56:27 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2016, 04:43:58 AM »
Where are you buying 1075 spring stock, Brownells?

I get 1075 from a company in Chicago 50 to 100 pounds at a time.
McMaster-Carr says they have it,too. My memory has lapsed and
I can't remember the Chicago company.

Bob Roller

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2016, 05:06:44 AM »
thanks,

I'll order some spring stock. 

Thanks for the interesting info on modern casting methods. 

Regarding Ruger, that is not much of a bar .  I do not own any Ruger firearms that use cast parts.  The tolerances are sloppy and the fit an finish is unacceptable to me.  If a standard auto dropped into may lap I would buy that for a good price.  Their pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and rifles are all nasty, not for me. 

IF Ruger used the castings as a starting point and machined them to final size that would be great.  They don't.  Same goes for modern Smith and Wessons that use MIM parts.  If I want a cheap gun that works I can always buy a Raven or High point.  IMHO S&W had been infected by the bean counters and is destined to to go bankrupt. 

Same with ML locks.  I have no issue with modern castings as a starting point.  I have an issue with as cast parts being slopped together into a rough sloppy lock with all the finesse of an anvil being drug down a gravel road. 

Offline Curt Lyles

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2016, 05:12:02 AM »
Admiral Steel has 1075 plus other steels as well There in Chicago.Curt

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2016, 05:16:28 AM »
Admiral Steel has 1075 plus other steels as well There in Chicago.Curt

Admiral is one company and I wish I could remember the one I bought from.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2016, 05:24:07 AM »
thanks,

I'll order some spring stock. 

Thanks for the interesting info on modern casting methods. 

Regarding Ruger, that is not much of a bar .  I do not own any Ruger firearms that use cast parts.  The tolerances are sloppy and the fit an finish is unacceptable to me.  If a standard auto dropped into may lap I would buy that for a good price.  Their pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and rifles are all nasty, not for me. 

IF Ruger used the castings as a starting point and machined them to final size that would be great.  They don't.  Same goes for modern Smith and Wessons that use MIM parts.  If I want a cheap gun that works I can always buy a Raven or High point.  IMHO S&W had been infected by the bean counters and is destined to to go bankrupt. 

Same with ML locks.  I have no issue with modern castings as a starting point.  I have an issue with as cast parts being slopped together into a rough sloppy lock with all the finesse of an anvil being drug down a gravel road. 

As has been mentioned in recent posts,anything made for a muzzle loader is supposed to be cheap.
That was the mind set and to a degree it still is. I charged $150 for a Hawken caplock and have been
asked what makes it worth $150. My answer is a wisecrack that says ""The lock is free but not the time and labor it took to
make it".The upper end of muzzle loading is NOT in a distressed market but mainly it is in that market.

Bob Roller

Offline davec2

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2016, 05:41:37 AM »
Scota,

Yes... from your post I can tell that you will only be satisfied with a precision lock of your own manufacture.  Please post pictures of your progress.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2016, 06:37:22 AM »
Maybe I will, only be satisfied with a handmade "precision" lock.  I am not sure what that standard is.  If precision means works properly then I guess I am OK with that.  IF it means made with ordinary care, OK too.   I do know I would never put my name on a rifle made with the lock and set triggers as I receive them.  I could never sell such a rifle, my conscious would not let me. 

Why a lock company would farm out cast parts to a hack assembler and put their name on it eludes me.  It blemishes their name sales potential. 

On the happy side, I am in the closing stretch of of Ohio-eque rifle.  My scratch made stock looks great and fits like a glove.  The lock now functions properly with no scraping or excessive friction.  The set triggers now set properly, hold,  and fire the rifle reliably.  They did not as sold.  I'll post some pictures soon.

As for making a lock, I will.  Sounds like and interesting project.  I'm always up for something new. 


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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2016, 03:24:02 PM »
Scota,
In your effort to make a first quality percussion lock, best advise would be to buy or borrow an antique lock by Stanton or Brazier (English 19th cent.) or perhaps one of the Bohemian or Czech makers.  (Lebeda, etc).
Disassemble the lock and study all the relationships of fit and function.  Questions will present themselves such as "how was that cut made and why"?  Notice how the screws fit related parts and the threads.  The level of interior finish will be apparent and likely an inspiration. 
Good Luck.
Jim

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2016, 04:43:47 PM »
Scota,
In your effort to make a first quality percussion lock, best advise would be to buy or borrow an antique lock by Stanton or Brazier (English 19th cent.) or perhaps one of the Bohemian or Czech makers.  (Lebeda, etc).
Disassemble the lock and study all the relationships of fit and function.  Questions will present themselves such as "how was that cut made and why"?  Notice how the screws fit related parts and the threads.  The level of interior finish will be apparent and likely an inspiration. 
Good Luck.
Jim

Whenever I needed a quality lock to study I would call the late and much missed
Lynton McKenzie and if need be,he'd pull one off a rifle and send it. That's how I got the
Stanton lock with 4 screw bridle in 1987. I have made about 30 of these over that time
period until now including a left and right pair.Also borrowed a small 4 screw from a
Whitworth boys rifle and have made about 8 copies,maybe.
Looking at the work of the better craftsmen of the long ago past is a great way to get
dimensions and study function of the different parts.
The Hawken locks with me began about 1964 and I have tried my best to make a much
better lock than anything available in St.Louis in the 18 and whatevers.Alignment and
precise dimensions are the trick. If you have those things then the nice looking parts
will follow if your level of interest is high enough.
Posting progress is helpful as well.

Bob Roller

Offline Clowdis

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2016, 05:08:54 PM »
I don't know your experience level so this may be a little off base, but why don't you buy a Siler kit and assemble that yourself? You can throw the plate away, make your own, and use the parts in the kit to finish it. I know they're cast but there are some pretty nice locks running around with Siler parts in them. You can finish them a fine as you wish before heat treating and if nothing else it'll give you some great experience working with the internals, finishing, and heat treating. I've made a couple of locks and the time involved is huge!! I agree with about everything Bob Roller says about making locks. I did buy a machined lock from Rod England recently that is a nice piece of work but the price was "up there". Definitely not a $150 lock!

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2016, 07:26:54 PM »
I don't know your experience level so this may be a little off base, but why don't you buy a Siler kit and assemble that yourself? You can throw the plate away, make your own, and use the parts in the kit to finish it. I know they're cast but there are some pretty nice locks running around with Siler parts in them. You can finish them a fine as you wish before heat treating and if nothing else it'll give you some great experience working with the internals, finishing, and heat treating. I've made a couple of locks and the time involved is huge!! I agree with about everything Bob Roller says about making locks. I did buy a machined lock from Rod England recently that is a nice piece of work but the price was "up there". Definitely not a $150 lock!



I haven't talked to Rod England for a while. I thought about making a few 4 screw types for the Alex Henry
but never got around to it an now I doubt if I ever will.Can you post a picture of the lock you got from Rod?
I'm curious about anyone that's as crazy as I am/was on making a lock with no cast internal parts.

Bob Roller

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2016, 07:27:28 PM »
I think I will start with a casting kit and make my own plate.  

Funny how cheap folks can be.  If I get a $150 lock and put a day in it to make it work right, that is no bargain.  My time is worth $40/hour...at lest my employer thinks it is. : )   So, that is $320(my time) + $150( cot so the lock)  = $470 of my resources.  If I could pay $300-400 for a nice lock I would not even blink.  Especially, If I were making rifles for sale.  

But it is a hobby for now, it is about the process of making stuff.  

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2016, 07:34:17 PM »
Sounds like you have a Davis lock by your description, if it is, why didn't you contact Tim at Davis and speak to him with your concerns, or for that matter send the thing back where you got it from?

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2016, 07:37:48 PM »
I have never had any problems with any of the cast springs from Chambers, L&R, or Davis. I have also had a hundred or so cast for myself out of 5160 or 1095. never had any trouble as long as they were hardened and tempered correctly. when I bought any L$R locks or parts I always temper them again because I think they are too hard. I have made a lot of tumblers from scratch out of tool steel and sears out of 1075. Even mild steel is OK if you case harden them sufficiently. I never have made locks for anybody except myself. I would classify lock making  as slave labor. I wouldn't make a lock for anybody for less than $2000.00
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Alternatives to cast locks?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2016, 09:11:00 PM »
I am not going to slander the maker by name.  Maybe I just have bad luck, or maybe my expectations are unrealistic.  He can not defend himself here, that would not be right for me to name the company. 

I did have to buy a replacement tumbler for the original junk one.   He had none on hand and had to have it drop shipped, which he forgot to do.  I had to call and remind him.  I think it should have been free. I do see the point of the maker in charging me. They don't know me and 90% of the time the customer ruined it.  So, I paid.  I am extremely annoyed that the replacement is also defective.  But what can I do about it?  The stock is made.  I can not just put some other mismatched lock in there. 

I will never buy another lock form that maker though.  I will probably scratch make another lock  to fit this rifle.