conical versus round ball in small caliber long rifle

[edwardc]

  as  the topic  says 

conical bullets  36 cal   versus

Round ball patched  with flannel patches

any  one have a preference ?

i would think  for small critters it would not matter  but maybe in a survival situation  making a clean kill  would matter

i for one  would not want to chase a wounded rabbit  if  it meant  i would not eat  for 2 or 3 days 

[Hungry Horse]

 First off I wouldn't have a clue where to get a mold to make conicals that small. Then there is the rate of twist matter to consider. 1in 48 which is the most common twist rate in barrels of .36 cal. Is a rather slow twist for that caliber, which works alright for a round ball, but not for a conical that requires a faster twist. And lastly, I would not use flannel for a patch, because it's not strong enough, or tightly woven enough, for a good strong patch. I prefer pocket drill for small ore patches. It is very tough, and almost never shreds like other materials.

 Hungry Horse

[Bob Roller]

First off I wouldn't have a clue where to get a mold to make conicals that small. Then there is the rate of twist matter to consider. 1in 48 which is the most common twist rate in barrels of .36 cal. Is a rather slow twist for that caliber, which works alright for a round ball, but not for a conical that requires a faster twist. And lastly, I would not use flannel for a patch, because it's not strong enough, or tightly woven enough, for a good strong patch. I prefer pocket drill for small ore patches. It is very tough, and almost never shreds like other materials.

 Hungry Horse

MAYBE a mould for a Navy Colt or similar Remington would work. I have had them that make a ball and a sharp pointed short bullet and they are available as new items from Dixie and others.

Bob Roller

[Candle Snuffer]

Well, my take on the question is to test both and use which one is the most accurate, consistently.

[bob in the woods]

My .36 rifle liked a .350 ball , pillow ticking patch and 4o gr of FFFg   That load would ruin a good bit of a rabbit , so head shots were preferred. Same with squirrels.  I don't think you're under gunned with a round ball .  I dropped a lot of critters with mine , up to coyotes and large raccoons. 

[Hungry Horse]

 The .36 cal. Revolver bullet mold throws .375 bullet, if it is an original mold, and a bit smaller if it is one of the brass Italian replicas. Neither will fit the bore of a .36 cal rifle. Now the .31 caliber pocket pistol conical is a whole other story. The undersized replica molds throw a bullet that with a run through a sizing die will fit a .32 cal. Rifle. But the 1in 48" twist is still too slow to stabilize the conical.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

The only rabbits I shot with a .36, were shot with patched round balls.  Pocket drill or denim is my preferred cloth for patches. Every rabbit (Snowshoe Hares) shot with that little rifle of Taylor's had it's head completely blown off.  It made more damage than the guys using lighter loads in their .54's.
The rifle was an original cap-lock English rifle, that we bored out then lined with a Bauska barrel we turned into a liner.

[Hungry Horse]

 Wow, Les made a barrel liner for an old guyI once knew,  that had a sweet little .36 cal. rifle signed Applebay, but it had a bad bore. That little rifle was the best small bore shooter I ever saw. When Les was informed of the accuracy of the lined barrel, he said it was because the lead solder that held the liner in place totally stopped the harmonic vibrations the barrel would have normally had,with a modern steel liner, and made it shoot like a wrought iron barrel. He also said it was a little faster twist than 1-48" but we never checked it.

      Hungry Horse

[hanshi]

The .36 is quite powerful with a simple round ball.  The small bores can easily be jacked up to 2000+ fps.  I've killed squirrel and coon with mine using a .350" ball, .024" mattress ticking and 30 grains of 3F.  Mostly I shoot 15grns to 20grns.  Short of deer a ball is all you need and you can even take them with a well placed shot.

[bob in the woods]

I didn't want to mention deer, because it is contentious to hunt them with a .36
That said, I do know a fellow who has taken whitetails with a .36 cal  42 in barrelled flintlock.  He uses 60 gr of FFg  and hunts from a tree stand.  Not my first choice, but it sure worked for him.

[diamante]

There was a fellow in my home town back in the early 1960's that built a Halfstock percussion rifle with a barrel he rifled himself that had a 1 in 36" twist and shot greased naked .357 wad cutters he molded out of pure lead.  I have shot that rifle and it was very accurate.

[mparker762]

For rabbits and such penetration doesn't matter, your biggest worry will be destroying the meat not killing the animal.  Deer are another matter, a .36 or .33 will penetrate to the vitals if the range is close enough (00 and 000 buck has killed a lot of deer over the centuries) but having only one ball instead of 8 or 9 means you have to be precise, and if you're hunting for living and not for fun you don't have a lot of margin for error.   Never had to do it myself with a small caliber patch and ball, but I grew up very poor in rural Louisiana and we raised (rabbit/chicken/hog) or hunted (squirrel/rabbit/deer/hog) virtually all the meat we ate.  If I were in a situation where I needed to shoot a deer with a .36, I'd shoot it in the head or through the spine in the neck.  That's how we shot them even with the .30 caliber (((unmentionable))) rifle we had, that way we didn't risk the deer going into somebody else's property, and didn't spoil any meat, and since the deer either dropped in its tracks or got one jump it never got that nasty taste from the adrenalin or whatever it is that their bodies generate when they run.  00 buckshot loads have killed a lot of deer over the years, obviously it has enough oomph to humanely kill a deer, but with just the one ball you do have to be careful.  Even a .32 will probably be fine, it'll be moving fast enough to shatter the spine when it hits and will probably still exit the neck.

Edit: what is ethical when hunting for fun is different from what is ethical when hunting to eat.

[Hungry Horse]

 I suspect more big game has been crippled with buckshot than actually ever made it onto the meat pole. Everyone I ever talked to that mentioned using shotguns, and buckshot, for big game, were not hunters, were driven mostly by need, and usually were a little short on hunting ethics.
 My grandparents on my mothers side of the family were from rural Arkansas, and Missouri, and made a living subsistence farming. the Missouri side had an old single barreled 20 gauge shotgun they used primarily for snakes, and protection, and two muzzleloaders in .32 cal. and .36 cal. that they killed deer and hogs with. The Arkansas side of the clan had a brass shell cartridge shotgun in 10 gauge used mostly on chicken hawks, snakes, and skunks. , and a 25-20 rifle for deer and hogs. I heard both sides of the family ridicule neighbors that hunted with buckshot, because of all the game they lost.

   Hungry Horse

[Dennis Glazener]

Everyone I ever talked to that mentioned using shotguns, and buckshot, for big game, were not hunters, were driven mostly by need, and usually were a little short on hunting ethics.

I doubt you talked to many in the eastern area of the country. There are areas of many states, including my state of Virginia, that have counties that DO NOT allow hunting with rifles.

When I was in my teens the entire eastern area of VA banned the use of rifles for Deer hunting. As of this year there are still 8 counties in VA that ban deer hunting with rifles. At one time, I am not sure if this is still the case, there were other counties that only allow rifles to be used  from an elevated stand, some older hunters elected to use shot guns rather than using elevated stands.

I am not familiar with other states but I feel sure many have similiar bans on using rifles.
Dennis

[sqrldog]

HH
I am always amazed at the old wives tails about buckshot. They usually come from people that have never used buckshot to hunt anything. I hunted and killed several deer with buckshot back in the late 60's and early 70's. I then worked 28 yrs as a Conservation Enforcement Officer with the Alabama Game and Fish Division. I saw hundreds of deer killed with buckshot. Are any ever crippled sure but those harvested far outweigh those crippled. As a matter of  information buckshot is still legal to use  for deer here in Al. Were it dang nigh  impossible to kill a deer with buckshot its'  use would have been stopped decades  ago. I have not used buckshot to hunt a  deer since around 1975 or so but I do not  express disdain for those that use it. As a  further comment I have helped hunters  track and ultimately lose deer shot by  every weapon legal to use in this state. I  have also witnessed several deer killed at  night with .22 rifles. Those were usually  costly to the night hunter. Tim Cosby

[mparker762]

I suspect more big game has been crippled with buckshot than actually ever made it onto the meat pole

I wouldn't know, I haven't personally witnessed enough of the buckshot shots to say with any authority.  But I had a great-uncle that used buckshot exclusively (he hunted with catahoula curs so running shots were the norm) and he never had a problem bringing them down.  We had several beagle-walker mixes we used for rabbits, that would also hunt deer if they were in a deer pack, so we would go out with that part of the clan in the later part of the season when the deer were making themselves scarce for regular hunting, so I was there for several of his deer kills.  They always dropped pretty quickly with good solid blood trails.

Whitetail deer are only big game by the process of elimination, we've killed out all the bigger game.  They're extremely easy to kill.

[Dennis Glazener]

Ok, I am guilty of drifting over into modern gun talk. Lets move away from the modern guns and back to ML's. Its against ALR rules to discuss anything but side lock muzzleloaders. I am sorry for forgetting.
Dennis

[BOB HILL]

We Southern Boys forgive you,Dennis......Bob

[sqrldog]

I offer my apologies also Dennis.Tim

[Daryl]

I offer my apologies also Dennis.Tim

No one ever said it was near impossible to kill deer with buckshot.  What was stated, was that there are much better projectiles for all-round deer killing -  single round balls of appropriate size come immediately to mind.

[edwardc]

  my intent  was  not  to start another war between  the states  LOL ( or as my southern cousin says  the recent unpleasantness lmao) 

what i am curious about is there  enough knock down power from a small cal pistol round  from the civil war  era  in a long rifle 
and since i have whats basically a not allowed gun  its more  of a small caliber rifle 30 32 34 etc  and could a revolver bullet take down a rabbit 
forget deer  i use my bow  for those  more sporting
to me any way 
they have a chance  to get away from me

[hanshi]

I use to have a very nice percussion double 12 ga.  I was wanting to try that good gun on deer.  But when I tested buckshot loads at 25 yards that idea went out the window.  Only one or two balls would have hit the deer and not necessarily in a vital area.  The rest would have hit legs, the hams, maybe the shoulder and the landscape behind him.  I was not about to shoot a deer with maybe a 50/50 chance of a mortal hit; and it would have to be under 25 yards.  That's why I use ball in my early American smoothbore.

[Hungry Horse]

 What I meant to infer by my family story, was that both sides of my family killed their big game with small caliber rifles. Grandad said his little muzzleloader would drop a deer in its tracks at fifty yards, and he had killed deer at 100 yards with the .36 cal. Muzzleloader.
 I'm sure buckshot is quite effective today in modern guns, but cylinder bore shotguns, and fowling pieces, using primitive wadding is going to be a different story I 'm sure. And, maybe my clan is just pickier about chasing game all over, and trying to wash the grit out of a gut shot buck.

  Hungry Horse

[sqrldog]

I would say if you could get a longer heavier conical to stabilize and shoot accurately then I would use it before using  the lighter round ball again it still comes down to bullet placement. I had friend now deceased that killed 25 or 30 deer with a .40 cal. flintlock. .40 cal is the minimum allowed under our hunting regulations. He was very picky about his shots and range. All of them were shot at a range of fifty yards or less most were does (management deer) but several were nice bucks. As he said if you punch a hole in the right place a .40 is all you need. I use .54 and had rather use the larger caliber. He used a .390 round ball. We did on several occasions discuss using a bullet in his rifle but never got around to do it. I agree with everyone posting on this subject that we owe the animals we hunt the most humane death possible. Tim

[Hungry Horse]

 Grandad said that at close range the small calibers with their higher velocity were more deadly than bigger calibers. The union army during the Civil War learned to respect the crack of squirrel rifles for the same reason.

   Hungry Horse