Need help with identification this old rifle I just received

[bigt]

I recently picked up new to me, old rifle.  Do not know anything about it other than what I could see myself.  It appears to be a .44 or less caliber (.45 caliber jagg does not fit, too large), Barrel is rifled, six wide flat grooves, unknown twist.  It has cheek pads on both sides, silver inlays, metal fore-stock, a push-pull trigger, on the lock the word "Remington" along with engraving.  The barrel is octagon, 1" in diameter, machined smooth at the muzzle for bullet/ball starter.  On top of the barrel behind the rear sight and before the breech are the only other words/marking which are "T. Waters" and the phrase "Recut by J. Allen Kalamazoo, Mich. WARRANTED". Here are some pictures of the rifle.

[JCKelly]

Great rifle, can't say whether it is NY or Mich. I found no T Waters in either Sellers American Gunsmiths or Swinney The New York State Firearms Trade. Or in my book.

Remington made barrels, many used on Michigan rifles. Remington at least put their name on locks and the odd cap box.

I know about James Allen, Kalamazoo, Michigan. From my book Michigan Gunsmiths . . .:

"Allen, James,  Kalamazoo     1856 - 187518                                      "
Kalamazoo and Wayne Counties. Gunsmith.  As Sweet & Allen 1860 - 1867. 17 N. Burdick in 1875. Allen was a general gunsmith and gunmaker in Kalamazoo starting in 1856. The 1860 census lists James Allen, born in New York about 1835, as a gunsmith His shop began at 17 North Burdick, Kalamazoo, and his first home at 38 Portage. Allen is listed in the Michigan Gazetteer and Business Directory of 1865, by Hawes. He is listed in the Gazetteer of 1873, by Scripps & Polk.

Allen is listed in the book Michigan in the War, by Robertson, 1861 to 1865, page 761. James Allen entered service August 19, 1862 as Serg’t Company L, 5th Cav. Promoted to Second Lt. November 2, 1863, First Lt. August 9, 1864 and Capt. February 1, 1865. Mustered out June 22, 1865 and was honorably discharged.

Sellers found Allen in the Detroit directory 1888-1895, I find no J Allen in the 1888 directory for Detroit.

The Kalamazoo City Directory of 1876 shows: Allen, James, business established 1856, practical gunsmith, dealer in guns, pistols, rifles, revolvers and sportsmen’s goods, repairing and boring, shot-guns for close shooting, 17 N. Burdick, residence 21 Academy (see adv.) pp106.  The 1860 Kalamazoo County census shows two James Allen, age 25, living in a boarding house. He was born in Ann Arbor, Michigan. By 1880 he lived with his wife Mary A., a Milliner born in New York about 1843. There were two sons born in Michigan, Charles S., 1863, and ?Will?, 1871."

Would kinda like to use these pictures, if it turns out to be a Michigan rifle, in the 4th edition of my book. If I live long enough. Also maybe I can find a T Waters in Michigan, who knows.

[bigt]

JC Kelly, I have sent you and email  concerning your request.  Thank you for the information you provided.

[JCKelly]

Looked at it some more, this is a very interesting rifle.

One thing common to Michigan rifles, though I doubt it is exclusive, is that trigger pull adjustment screw. Huh? The light colored screw head, second one from left on lockplate, just under the N in REMINGTON. It has a pointed tip, screw it in a little and it cams the scear nose out of the tumbler notch for a lighter trigger pull.



Those white inlays might be vaguely familiar to me - what are they? Mother of Pearl, bone or ivory?

I have never seen such a trigger. Looks like it can be pushed forward to do something.
I believe this rifle was originally an Over/Under gun converted to a single barrel rifle. The fore part of the trigger might be pressed to release it.
The buttstock is a separate piece from the forend, separated by a thick plate of metal.
There is a button just forward of the cock - what might that be for, other than part of the latching mechanism?

Now I feel obligated to search for a T WATERS somewhere.

[bigt]

The inlays are silver with what looks like a silver nail at the tip of each inlay.  In the current configuration, with this trigger, pull the hammer back and push the trigger forward to cock , to fire the gun  pull (squeeze) the trigger back. One thing I did not mention before is that all the hardware is steel, butt plate, trigger guard, forestock, trigger, etc.  The screw head you mentioned under in "n" of Remington upon closer look, with a magnifying glass, appears to be peened over.

Could T. Waters had been the owner of the gun at one time?

You information has been very helpful, thank you.

[dmb1953]

I have in my collection of Ontario made rifles a rather plain half-stock rifle that is gang stamped T.WATERS WARDSVILLE  with serial number 11. Nothing is known of this maker and only this one rifle is known to exist.  The stamp is so light that it will not photograph.  The quality of this rifle is not near yours.

[bigt]

Thank you for your response.  I was wondering if "T.Waters" was the owners name, but now I believe with you input that "T. Waters" could have been a gunsmith, interesting.   Can you post some photos of your rifle?

[dmb1953]

No way this old guy can do that.  If I have your email I could get my wife to send you some pictures.  This T.Waters rifle has little going for it other than it is the only known one by him.  cheers   Don

[bigt]

Don, I will send you my email address under separate cover, Subject Pics of T Waters Rifle

[frogwalking]

Is there any kind of quick release to allow the barrel to be removed easily?  It looks as if that may have been the purpose of the metal plate.  Also, I have not seen what appears to be a hammer stop on a percussion rifle before.  If the barrel is easily removable, this stop would prevent damage if someone inadvertently dry fired it. Could it be a buggy rifle?

[Tom Moore]

There is a listing in the 1880 U.S. census that shows a gunsmith named Truman Waters, born 1820 in Canada, living in Jackson, Jackson Co. MI. As well as an 1885 directory listing him as a gunsmith at 127 Pearl E. in Jackson, MI. He is also listed as a carpenter in Detroit Ward 6, Wayne, MI. in 1860 and as a cabinet maker in Wayland, Allegan Co. MI. in 1870. He might be your man. Hope this helps. -Tom