Author Topic: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!  (Read 17834 times)

Offline Joe S.

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2016, 06:52:48 PM »
Well put sir.

Offline conquerordie

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2016, 07:36:28 PM »
Acer,

I have not been bothered by anything I've read about my rifle. I haven't read anything that comes across even negative towards my project. Just recommendations that I still have wood to remove, and to handle originals.  I have seen critiques go wrong in the past though, so I understand where you are coming from.
Maybe guys like me who seek your opinions can add that theyd like them in a PM, or just PM a specific person like yourself and ask if your be willing to critique.
I also agree with another poster that too many opinions can be confusing. I agree that a person to person critque would be great. Is it possible on the forum to have a list of members willing to meet with others for this purpose? Having their general locations within a state available so it's easy to find each other? Obviously on a volunteer basis. I'm sure not all would be comfortable giving critques. Like you said it's not for everyone.
I'll start, I'm in Fulton county NY, about an hour from Albany. Anyone nearby who would be willing to meet with me for some honest critiquing?
Greg



Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2016, 09:28:30 PM »
Greg, my statement about critique is not just for you, but for the whole ALR. So much of our work is really about the ART of the rifle, and we need feedback, we need reality checks. We all need critique. I should add that it's very hard to critique from photos. The internet is not an ideal venue for this kind of advice.


I'm in the Hudson Valley, about an hour south east of Albany, NY.  I'd be happy to go over your work with you. Unfortunately, I don't have any antique jaegers to illustrate with. Send me a PM if you're interested.


Two shows that often have antique jaegers are the CLA, as mentioned above, and the 18th Century Artisan Show in Lewisburg PA.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 09:29:00 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2016, 11:09:02 PM »
Acer you said a mouthful about obtaining honest Critique's. Obtaining them is one of the toughest things in any field, and doubly so in the arts. As you alluded to what you mostly get are well meaning but useless ego fluffery. A knowledgeable person willing to provide an honest opinion and solid information is very difficult to come by.

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Offline heinz

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2016, 11:39:35 PM »
I put photos of my Jaeger up on the contemporary makers blog under the titlle "antique jaeger". If you go there and click on "web version" you can do a search. If you need any measurements I can do them for you. There are several jaegers on that blog worth looking at.
Mine is one of the few you will see taken apart.
kind regards, heinz

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2016, 09:55:03 PM »
my personal take is that the ONLY critique that will ever matter most is the creator's honest opinions of what they've just created.  you WILL know when a project meets its criteria and when it fails, no matter how small a failure.  if the piece you just created renders satisfactory bliss to yerself, there is no need to want external compliments, though it is a large part of human nature to seek from peer to expert approval.  

"expert approval" can be such an oxymoron, too.  sometimes mostly moron, unfortunately.   the absolute nonsense about "era, period, and hysterical correctness" is just that - nonsense for the most part.  there are some obvious things about guns and accoutrements that specify historical time frames, and lots that we'll never know about for sure.  whilst there surely were/are styles relevant to eras, nothing was produced by a cookie cutter.  not all gun makers were great craftsmen or artists, either.  you want dead nuts correctness, copy from a known and verified original.  it's gotten to the point where some self proclaimed correctness gurus can suck all the fun outta this whole hobby of 18th and 19th century muzzleloaders.  life's far too short for that silliness.  

so, to the OP - ya done real good and i do like yer gun ... enjoy the fruits of yer labor and make many good bangs of smoke 'n' fire!  huzzah to you, sir!    
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 10:10:50 PM by rfd »

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2016, 11:36:36 PM »
While i don't totally disagree rfd, It is important on a site devoted to the preservation of the traditional American Longrifle and to helping to develop the skills and craftsmanship of the art and mystery of building those long rifles that we are able to display our work and receive meaningful and helpful feedback if we are to continue to grow and develop. It is easy for me to smoke my own exhaust... I need others honest and detailed opinions about my work to help me improve.  Its not about praise.... although that is nice too... it is about learning from masters.. This site and the many very experienced and highly skillful artists who share their wisdom here has been of tremendous value to me and to many others.  All of your cautions should be taken into account and in the final analysis after all the feedback is received it is still my right to make my own decisions... and sometimes the work product may suffer, hopefully I will learn from it..... I can learn faster with many helpers!!   :o ;D ;D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 11:37:39 PM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2016, 11:50:25 PM »
rfd,
First, Thank you for the kind comments. Much of what you say is dead nuts true. You might have seen my comment that I believe I have what I call builder blindness. The rifle seems great to me. But, I also know I'm fairly new to this, so what  I view as satisfactory, others can see flaws. I don't mind hearing others opinions, that's why I started this whole conversation.
I also agree that sometimes professional builders can take some of the fun out of this, be it as self proclaimed authorities or just set in there ways. I'm not saying that I believe people on this forum are like that. For the most part I believe it the opposite. That's why I posted here.
Your right about not all gunsmith were as talented as others back in the day. Today's guns are seen more for there art and perfection than for there usefulness. I'm the first to admit that I'm not of that school. Art and perfection is not my style. But to capture the feel of the originals is. That's why I seek critiques. My opinion is the original builders in the 18 century that weren't the top of their craft still made plenty of guns that we're used up and lost to us. The most talented, well they made them for the wealthy and they are what we have to study today. Incredible artistry and quality, but sat in a castle somewhere and collected dust. Not what Im interested in.
I feel like I'm starting to ramble so I'll wrap it up. I want the advice and comments of the builders here, I want to improve, but most of all I want to be proud of my build. Its not there yet, but I'm getting close.
Greg

« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 12:16:05 AM by conquerordie »

Offline Joe S.

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2016, 01:04:39 AM »
you built it with your own two hands,man what an accomplishment! think about it,would you have thought you could pull it off a year,two ago.Be proud man,its your creation.Even being a novice I can see little oops in every thing I look at,that's life,bottom line be proud for how far you come!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 01:46:17 AM by Joe S. »

Offline conquerordie

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2016, 05:47:59 AM »
Oh don't take me wrong. I'm very proud that I made a function, reliable rifle. I was speaking more to the architectural correctness. It's obviously not the normal jaeger that others would want to build. I think that's why I was attracted to it.

rfd

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2016, 12:28:49 PM »
Oh don't take me wrong. I'm very proud that I made a function, reliable rifle. I was speaking more to the architectural correctness. It's obviously not the normal jaeger that others would want to build. I think that's why I was attracted to it.

don't sweat it - i can assure you that there were many Many MANY variations on the flintlock firearm theme since its early 17th century original creation.  what you've created in design form could easily have been built, as is, "back in the day" and there is no proof to the contrary.  so unless yer attempting to replicate a known historical firearm example, the only "correctness" will be in your mind's eye.  what threads like this are good for is the craftsmanship part - the processes and tooling and etc. - learning the gun maker skills, not so much the design part.

Jeger Justnes

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2016, 11:05:52 AM »
I think your build is not very unlike the stout and sturdy rifles we know the Norwegian ski jaeger troops used from early 1700's. Take a peek at the M1711, they came in a short and a long version. Most are restocked and all were later converted to percussion (1841) and pillar breech and new bayonet (1851) hence the long model name M1711/41/51.

Courtesy of digitalmuseum.no

I have an old flintlock rifle from ca. 1720 by Swedish gunmaker Christof Schel with a German barrel dated 1648 (probably ex wheel-lock). The "rear end" is also very plump, both in height and width.




Enjoy your plank, happy hunting conquerordie :-)

« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:14:34 PM by Jeger Justnes »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2016, 03:18:42 PM »
my personal take is that the ONLY critique that will ever matter most is the creator's honest opinions of what they've just created.  you WILL know when a project meets its criteria and when it fails, no matter how small a failure.  if the piece you just created renders satisfactory bliss to yerself, there is no need to want external compliments, though it is a large part of human nature to seek from peer to expert approval.  

"expert approval" can be such an oxymoron, too.  sometimes mostly moron, unfortunately.   the absolute nonsense about "era, period, and hysterical correctness" is just that - nonsense for the most part.  there are some obvious things about guns and accoutrements that specify historical time frames, and lots that we'll never know about for sure.  whilst there surely were/are styles relevant to eras, nothing was produced by a cookie cutter.  not all gun makers were great craftsmen or artists, either.  you want dead nuts correctness, copy from a known and verified original.  it's gotten to the point where some self proclaimed correctness gurus can suck all the fun outta this whole hobby of 18th and 19th century muzzleloaders.  life's far too short for that silliness.  

so, to the OP - ya done real good and i do like yer gun ... enjoy the fruits of yer labor and make many good bangs of smoke 'n' fire!  huzzah to you, sir!    
This is a different forum than the one you moderate and you may not fully understand what we try to accomplish here. My goal here is to offer education from my experience of decades of building and my observation of all the originals I have had the opportunity to see. I actually learn things here on a very regular basis and am humbled by alot of the work I see here.
 If someone here wants a critique it isn't fair to give him a pile of atta boys and let him blunder off into his next gun never knowing where or what he may not have quite right. Atta boys do nothing to improve your work. You'll get advice here from all kinds of people, from folks that have no idea what they are talking about to absolute experts on the subject. You really have to have the ability to sift it all out.
 I know from your past posts you have issues with "Histerical correctness" as you put it. But, your "issue" may put you in the minority here as the main goal  is to educate what is right and what isn't. If the attitude here was "build it how you want it's yer gun" you'd loose all the treasure of the people who actually know what these guns are supposed to look like and offer their help to those that are trying to improve what they are building. Once you loose those masters that hang out here you loose everything that makes this forum the jewel that it is. At then it wouldn't make any difference anymore and it would be just like all the other forums with the  "Just get er done" attitude. It's all about education man, not just feel good "good ol boy" back slapping.
 Sometimes I think we should put up a header somewhere: "CAUTION, YOU MAY BE OFFENDED BY READING SOME POSTS". ;D
 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 04:03:57 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2016, 03:22:41 PM »
BTW, the gun pictured  just above is no larger than it's barrel, buttplate and trigger pull dictate. No "extra" wood has been left.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2016, 03:29:59 PM »
If you are trying to make a bench copy of the subject Jaeger you have show as the inspiration of your build.  Then I would agree you could improve on your carving skills. But if you are asking if the Jaeger you have built looks like a Jaeger should ? I think your Jaeger looks Great . Sporting Jaegers were not built  any two just alike. So many things differ,  such as, LOP , lock style /trigger style/ fit of cheek rest /and wrist size/barrel lenth /sight choice, carving or none, well you get it, all within the same builders shop.  Sure it is not hard to recognize the work from some of the old Jaeger rifle builders ,  or one of his apprentice ,and even less trouble to identify a Jaeger built in a certain region or country. But until someone can produce evidince that there exist ( three or even two) - (period built Jaeger rifles that are just alike)  than there is no wrong modern built Jaeger . Back to , If you think it is what you invision a Jaeger should be , It is right.  The only Jaeger rifles that were built to a pattern were the Military Jaegers . It is not hard to find ,two /three/ or even in some Models more.  That are built as close as possible to each other. Still most are marked with assembly numbers because parts were hand fit and will not exchange without a re-fit.  If someone can show us that the no two alike idea is wrong . I would love to see the proof . I would like to thank the Admin for the chance to explain my opinion about this topic. Sincerely Ron Wehmeyer
Have you done much reading on this subject? I'm interested to know your source material. Do you have any books you could recommend so I can better understand this? I think I may be somewhat naive on this subject.....
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2016, 03:41:01 PM »
Ron,
I wasn't going for a bench copy or anything, just the overall design of the stock. My carving is in its infant stage compared to others, so its just one of the areas I continue to improve in.
I think Mike made the distinction of contemporary build vs. HC builds. My personal goal is to be more HC THAN contemporary, that is why I seek people's opinions. Look at the beautiful jaeger members like Heinz and jager justen have just produced for me to study, albeit in pictures.  I want my jaeger to look and feel like that. My rifle is seen as HC by some and contemporary by others. Both sides have given me their reason why, and both have valid arguments. I just haven't decided for myself which one it is. If it's not HC to me, then I'm probably going to break out the ole rasps again and do this gun for the third time. Best I can say working on the same,stock three times is cost effective ;D
Greg

Offline James Rogers

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2016, 03:57:55 PM »

 My goal here is to offer education from my experience of decades of building and my observation of all the originals I have had the opportunity to see. I actually learn things here on a very regular basis and am humbled by alot of the work I see here.
 If someone here wants a critique it isn't fair to give him a pile of atta boys and let him blunder off into his next gun never knowing where or what he may not have quite right. Atta boys do nothing to improve your work. You'll get advice here from all kinds of people, from folks that have no idea what they are talking about to absolute experts on the subject. You really have to have the ability to sift it all out.
 I know from your past posts you have issues with "Histerical correctness" as you put it. But, your "issue" may put you in the minority here as the main goal  is to educate what is right and what isn't. If the attitude here was "build it how you want it's yer gun" you'd loose all the treasure of the people who actually know what these guns are supposed to look like and offer their help to those that are trying to improve what they are building. Once you loose those masters that hang out here you loose everything that makes this forum the jewel that it is. At that it would make any difference anymore and it would be just like all the other forums with the  "Just get er done" attitude. It's all about education man, not just feel good good ol boy back slapping.
 Sometimes I think we should put up a header somewhere: "CAUTION, YOU MAY BE OFFENDED BY READING SOME POSTS". ;D
 

Well said.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2016, 04:00:25 PM »
Ron,
I wasn't going for a bench copy or anything, just the overall design of the stock. My carving is in its infant stage compared to others, so its just one of the areas I continue to improve in.
I think Mike made the distinction of contemporary build vs. HC builds. My personal goal is to be more HC THAN contemporary, that is why I seek people's opinions. Look at the beautiful jaeger members like Heinz and jager justen have just produced for me to study, albeit in pictures.  I want my jaeger to look and feel like that. My rifle is seen as HC by some and contemporary by others. Both sides have given me their reason why, and both have valid arguments. I just haven't decided for myself which one it is. If it's not HC to me, then I'm probably going to break out the ole rasps again and do this gun for the third time. Best I can say working on the same,stock three times is cost effective ;D
Greg
I'd just leave that one the way it is and move on to the next project. If I re did all of the guns I have built untill I thought I had corrected all the mistakes I'd still be on my first gun. ;D
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2016, 04:37:22 PM »
I'd like to make a final point. In my opinion this is not an "elitists" forum as some would suggest. It is a place where like minded individuals exchange information to further the correct methods of building and styles/schools of 18th century firearms. Nothing more, nothing less. Ask for information and you will receive, free of charge from those that may well be some of the best builders  in the modern world. Some information you will like and some you won't.
 This is a real gem of an opportunity that many of us never had untill relatively recently.  I for one am thankful for the opportunity to participate and learn.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2016, 04:41:55 PM »
If you are trying to make a bench copy of the subject Jaeger you have show as the inspiration of your build.  Then I would agree you could improve on your carving skills. But if you are asking if the Jaeger you have built looks like a Jaeger should ? I think your Jaeger looks Great . Sporting Jaegers were not built  any two just alike. So many things differ,  such as, LOP , lock style /trigger style/ fit of cheek rest /and wrist size/barrel lenth /sight choice, carving or none, well you get it, all within the same builders shop.  Sure it is not hard to recognize the work from some of the old Jaeger rifle builders ,  or one of his apprentice ,and even less trouble to identify a Jaeger built in a certain region or country. But until someone can produce evidince that there exist ( three or even two) - (period built Jaeger rifles that are just alike)  than there is no wrong modern built Jaeger . Back to , If you think it is what you invision a Jaeger should be , It is right.  The only Jaeger rifles that were built to a pattern were the Military Jaegers . It is not hard to find ,two /three/ or even in some Models more.  That are built as close as possible to each other. Still most are marked with assembly numbers because parts were hand fit and will not exchange without a re-fit.  If someone can show us that the no two alike idea is wrong . I would love to see the proof . I would like to thank the Admin for the chance to explain my opinion about this topic. Sincerely Ron Wehmeyer
Shumway's Vol. 1 is a good start. He also did a book of nothing but jeagers, another good resource. Above all, look at originals in person. BTW, I am no "expert", there are far more knowledgeable people, I suspect they just don't want to participate in the debate, which is understandable.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Caihlen

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2016, 04:47:37 PM »
I'd like to make a final point. In my opinion this is not an "elitists" forum as some would suggest. It is a place where like minded individuals exchange information to further the correct methods of building and styles/schools of 18th century firearms. Nothing more, nothing less. Ask for information and you will receive, free of charge from those that may well be some of the best builders  in the modern world. Some information you will like and some you won't.
 This is a real gem of an opportunity that many of us never had untill relatively recently.  I for one am thankful for the opportunity to participate and learn.

Yes. 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2016, 04:58:33 PM »
Here you go. probably the best info resource on the subject. "Stienschloss-Jagerbuchsen" by Erhard Wolf available from Jim Chambers. Expensive but well worth the investment.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Long John

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2016, 05:19:02 PM »
Greg,

Back when I was young and foolish I read everything I could get my hands on about flint guns.  Much of what I read was written by folks who were extolling the virtues of the American Longrifle and, apparently, the authors thought the best way was to contrast the American guns of the late 18th century with the predecessor guns of the 16th and 17th century Europe, generally, and the German lands more specifically.  Those references described the German Jaeger rifles as "clumsy, heavy, chubby, short" amongst other less complimentary terms.  

Then while on a work-related trip to Europe I had the opportunity to spend a weekend in Copenhagen, during which I visited the Tojusmuseet, the Danish National Arms Museum.  I lost no time in making a bee-line to the hall of flintlock guns.

HOLY GUACAMOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There, in one room, had to be several hundred jaeger-style rifles.  I found that virtually everything I had read from all those books and articles was WRONG!  None of the guns I saw were clumsy.  They were all trim and excellently designed.  Yes, the butt plates are wide.  (If you are shooting a 66 caliber ball in a 7 pound rifle it lets you know you pulled the trigger!  That wide butt-plate makes the recoil tolerable.)  But moving forward, the stocks necked down to a slender wrist.  The stocks then flared out to support their respective locks.   The lock-plate flats were scarcely a 1/16" wider than the lock plate and the locks seemed to be let in hardly a 1/16" inch.  The side-plates flats swelled out symmetrically.   But the wood had been taken down to the point where it seemed as if the wood was only filling in the spaces between the metal parts, AND NO MORE.  Then the stocks necked right down to form a slender, tight wrap around the swamped barrel.  Usually the thickness of the wood along-side the barrel was less than 3/32".  The stocks then flared at the muzzle.  The muzzle-caps, some horn, some brass and some steel, were all flared. The ramrod was tucked tight under the barrel.   I could really see how trim these guns were when I looked at them from the top or bottom.   The only flat surfaces on the whole gun stock were the lock flats.  Everything else was rounded, trim and often concave.   Profile photographs can be VERY misleading.  

So, now that I am just plain foolish I realize that the typical jaeger rifle was NOT heavy, ponderous, clumsy, clunky and chubby.  Even the strictly military issue guns were lean and trim.  An authentic jaeger rifle is trim, nimble, quick on point.  It handles like a Model 94 Winchester!

I hope my recollections of my experience in Denmark 20 years ago helps you as you explore the art and craft of the jaeger rifle in your next build.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Offline Pete G.

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2016, 05:23:38 PM »
I think I may be somewhat naive on this subject.....


Anybody else have a problem visualizing this ??? There may be a lot of adjectives that can be used for Mike Brooks, but I don't think "naïve" is one of them. ;)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: My first rifle from a plank..........take two!
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2016, 05:49:55 PM »
Excellent observations, Long John.
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