Author Topic: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE  (Read 14204 times)

Offline Herb

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"Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« on: July 07, 2016, 08:00:42 AM »
Again, thanks to Mtn Meek for telling me about this rifle.  It is in the Nebraska History Museum.  Senior Curator Laura Mooney allowed me to handle, measure and photograph this rifle, as well as the D.T. Hawken.  The one shown here is the one Roubidoux drew a plan of some years ago.  Laura is checking to see if they have a copy of that plan.


Barrel is 32 1/8" to front of snail, where it is 1 1/8" wide.  1.090 at the muzzle.

Length of pull is 13.5" to front trigger.  Notice all the holes where there were brass tacks, on both sides of the stock.

This is same buttplate as on the Bridger and Carson Hawkens, Track's #BP-Hawk-JB-I, which has to be filed back on the inside curve to thin it. Toeplate is Track's beavertail finial, #TP-TC-H-I.


Trigger plate is 10" long and the trigger guard is 5.6" long.

























.50 caliber.  Rib held on with 3 rivets, front one missing, 1/8" hole.  Rib not loose.  One-inch long ball puller screw on inside end of ramrod, total length 32.5". Rod pipes .485" ID, .635" OD.
Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2016, 08:11:06 AM »
This is Senior Museum Curator Laura Mooney, who was so helpful.  I gave her a copy of "The Magic Field", a true story I wrote about burning a native prairie in North Dakota, fire and prairie ecology.  I gave the story to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service for use in their "fire outreach" program.

Herb

Offline Don Steele

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2016, 12:35:16 PM »
Thank You.
I enjoy the excellent pictures and measurements you are sharing.
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline Joe S.

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2016, 02:58:54 PM »
Thanks for all your doing,great seeing all these original hawken rifles

nosrettap1958

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2016, 03:16:26 PM »
Do we know any more about the history and/or previous owner of this rifle?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2016, 12:28:22 AM »
What a great rifle Herb, and super images (have shamelessly copied and saved to my files for reference)!!

Thanks so much for these.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline wweedman

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2016, 02:41:14 AM »
There are at least 2 Hawken rifles at the Rock Island Arsenal Miseum that were turned in by Indians who surrendered to the army some years after Little Big Horn. They also had 5 firearms documented to that battle. Unfortunately the army is revamping the museum to be an interpretation display only and one Custer rifle will be displayed at a National Museum sometime in the future and everything else is being packed up for storage at a facility in Alabama. Included in this is a Rappahannic Forge wall gun in outstanding condition. I heard about the closing  and visited it a month ago before it closed.

Offline Herb

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2016, 07:15:54 AM »
Crawdad- I asked Laura about the provenance of this rifle, but I don't remember what she said, except it was not much.  Her E-mail is laura.mooney@nebraska.gov.  www.nebraskahistory.org.
Herb

Offline Brent English

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2016, 03:54:18 PM »
A great old rifle and wonderful pictures, thank you.  How come the group of us that gets upset when a gun is reconverted to flint, doesn't say anything about the tacks being pulled when the stock was "restored".  To me it is just as significant loss to the history of the gun.  Of course the counter-argument could be made that the "restoration" which was probably done when the gun was donated to the museum years ago, would not happen today.
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline Herb

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2016, 05:35:57 PM »
I know nothing of its history.  It looks as if it has been sanded so much that the edges have been worn off, and then some kind of finish applied.  But the Cheyenne Hawken also has rounded lock panels. Were the tack holes filled with plugs? 
Herb

Offline JTR

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2016, 06:22:21 PM »
A great old rifle and wonderful pictures, thank you. 

How come the group of us that gets upset when a gun is reconverted to flint, doesn't say anything about the tacks being pulled when the stock was "restored". 

Sorry, but how do you know when the tacks were pulled out?

Or how do you know when the tacks were put in?

How do you know if the tacks were original old style tacks, or modern ones put there by a modern mountain man wanting to make an 'injun' gun?

How do you know who did whatever it was that was done to the stock?

As usual, your group knows nothing,,,,, but that small fact just doesn't seem to matter..... 

Shame, it's a nice gun and why can't you just let it go at that, and enjoy the fact that someone took the time to go to the museum, take the pictures and measurements, and post them here?

John
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Offline Brent English

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2016, 07:31:43 PM »
John wrote;  "As usual, your group knows nothing,,,,, but that small fact just doesn't seem to matter....."

I guess we'll never know about the tacks John.  Somebody took them out.  Me, I like old injun guns.  Don't appreciate being told I don't know anything though.  Not sure how that helps the conversation.   I did thank Herb for the photos. Great of him to share.  I stand by my comments.
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline George

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2016, 12:20:15 AM »
Sorry to read the above post that the RockIsland museum is closing.I went to a class there in 1982 while working for D.L.A. in Chicago,and took a lot of pictures nd got to view some Weapons and other things stored in wall cabinets in the basement. I was hung up on 18th and 19th century US Military weapons at that time and therefore that's the pictures I have . nEW SUBJECT  I HAVE A m-1861Springfield dtd 1861 Indian gun Barrel cut off with a file Stock burned out from cap flash.A beaded on felt like material tied to trigger guard(until the safe door hinge broke the skewer it was attached with(very brittle)It is retacked you can still see some of the original head outline .Don't know who did it as there is no refinishing.bought it at a filling station in S Dakota on Hwy 212(I think) in 1971 on the way to Malstrom AFB at Great falls Montana for my terminal assignment,I thought. O well just  the rambling of a old man.   George
George

Offline Herb

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2016, 07:26:00 AM »
I said the rod pipes were .485" ID, but that was the ID of the entry pipe.  The ID of the rod pipes was .515.
Herb

Boompa

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2016, 07:51:18 AM »
 Antoine Robidoux was a fur trapper in the southern Rockies to include Utah. I don't know if that rifle is part of his history but I'd be interested in knowing.  He die in St Louis in about 1860 I think.  Thanks for sharing Herb.

Offline Herb

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2016, 06:18:27 AM »
Antoine Roubidoux had a trading post at Whiterocks, Utah, about 20 miles west of me probably in the 1840's.  It was burned by the Utes and all the people there killed, except Roubidoux was not there.  The Roubidoux who drew a plan of the Lincoln Hawken has the same name, I don't know if he is any relation to the trader.  He lived in Lincoln, NE and probably drew that plan in the 1960's or 1970's.  Curator Mooney is researching this plan and will let me know.
Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2016, 04:13:59 PM »
Curator Mooney told me this Hawken came from an arms collector in Omaha in 1962 in the same condition as now, that is, the tack holes were filled.  She is still searching for the Roubidoux drawing of this rifle.
Herb

Offline sqrldog

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2016, 05:06:07 PM »
Back in 2013 a similar search for the Robidoux Hawken drawing was done on the ALR. Not sure of the final result but HABU  listed a phone number for Kurt Robidoux. Might be worth a shot. I have a copy but I use them from time to time and really don't want to part with them. Good luck

Offline PPatch

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2016, 06:49:58 PM »
Back in 2013 a similar search for the Robidoux Hawken drawing was done on the ALR. Not sure of the final result but HABU  listed a phone number for Kurt Robidoux. Might be worth a shot. I have a copy but I use them from time to time and really don't want to part with them. Good luck

And due that thread I contacted Kurt. He was a bit surprised that anyone was still interested in those drawings and said he would reproduce them but to my knowledge never has.

dave
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2016, 07:23:52 PM »
I bought a set of his drawings and have poured over them for years.  I used them to create the patterns for some of my first Hawken builds, and they were very useful.  The paper of my set is pretty tired.  but the  information is still valuable.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline blienemann

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2016, 04:38:30 AM »
I sure think I've seen this set of drawings for sale again in the last year or two - with a display ad in Muzzle Blasts or Muzzleloader.  Might be able to search an index?  Seems like the ad stated it was from the same family as the gentleman who drew them originally, and at the same price after 30 years!  What a bargain.

nosrettap1958

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2016, 04:57:11 AM »
Crawdad- I asked Laura about the provenance of this rifle, but I don't remember what she said, except it was not much.  Her E-mail is laura.mooney@nebraska.gov.  www.nebraskahistory.org.

Thank you Herb for that information. But, like you said, there isn't much known about this rifle.  A shame.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2016, 07:04:09 PM »
Herb, thanks for sharing the pictures of this Hawken rifle.

Wayne Robidoux drew a set of blue prints of this rifle back in the early 1970’s.  The set I have is dated October 18, 1971.



IIRC, the drawings were the product of a class project when he was in college or a vo-tech school.

He ended up advertising the set of plans for sale in Muzzle Blasts and other BP magazines in the 1970’s and 1980’s.  This one is from the January 1972 issue of Muzzle Blasts.



As described in the ad, there were six sheets of 30” x 42” drawings in the set, plus three 8” x 10” photographs of the rifle.  The course must have been a mechanical drawing or precision machining course because these are the most detailed and comprehensive set of blueprints I’ve seen for a muzzleloader.  Wayne Robidoux provided drawings, dimensions, and details sufficient to make every part for the rifle with the possible exception of the barrel.  Here are some of the details from his drawings.









As sqrldog and PPatch mentioned, there was a lot of discussion on this forum a few years back about this rifle and Wayne Robidoux’s blueprints.  As a result, Robidoux Inc. ran an ad in the April 2014 issue of Muzzle Blasts offering the blueprints for sale again.  This is the ad you were thinking of Mr. Lienemann.



There has been quite a bit of inflation between the early 1970’s and 2014, and the price for the blueprints had increased from $12 to $99.95.  I purchased the set of prints I have in the early 2000's when Wayne Robidoux was still alive.  As I recall, they cost just under $30 then.

Wayne’s blueprints were available at the beginning of the Hawken craze and advertised regularly in Muzzle Blasts.  Yet, I find it interesting that none of the companies that made semi-production and production Hawken rifles appear to have utilized Wayne’s blueprints—not Green River Rifle Works, Sharon Rifle Barrel Co., Ithaca Gun Co., Ozark Mountain Arms, or A. Uberti & Co/Western Arms Corp.  Had one of these companies consulted Wayne’s blueprints when they started up, they would have been way ahead of the curve.

It wasn’t until GRRW began the Bridger Hawken project with the Montana Historical Society in 1975 that they had access to an original Hawken rifle similar to the one that Robidoux studied and drew 4 years earlier.  After 1976, GRRW began building and selling a mid-1850's Sam Hawken pattern rifle based on the Bridger Hawken as their standard pattern Hawken rifle, but it is also very similar to the rifle in the Nebraska History Museum under discussion.

One of the myths that circulates in the muzzleloader community is that the Santa Fe Hawken from Uberti/Western Arms Corp was built from a set of blueprints that had been drawn from the Kit Carson Hawken (sometimes it is the Ithaca Hawken that is a copy of the Carson Hawken).  Leonard Allen of Western Arms Corp never made this claim.  He apparently sent Uberti, as a prototype for the Santa Fe Hawken, a custom rifle built with Cherry Corners parts or one of the first Ithaca Hawken rifles that came off the assembly line.  Had Leonard Allen sent Uberti a copy of Wayne Robidoux’s blueprints, the Santa Fe Hawken would have looked a lot more like the actual Carson Hawken.

It’s good to see some current photographs of the rifle to go along with the Wayne Robidoux blueprints, so thanks again, Herb.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 01:46:15 AM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

Offline Herb

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2016, 09:14:50 PM »
Now that is a drawing!  I see I have misspelled his name.  Thanks for the great post.
Herb

oakridge

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Re: "Roubidoux" Hawken in Lincoln, NE
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2016, 07:05:26 AM »
WOW!