Are we more worried about looks as opposed to performance?

[nosrettap1958]

I used to shoot with a club and during our monthly paper shoots it became the same old shooters using custom built swamped barreled rifles fighting it out month after month.

However, at one particular shoot there was a big difference. Two shooters from Ohio brought their Douglas barreled,  CVA half stockers, nice looking rifles for being an 'off the shelf' muzzleloader, but their barrels were glass bedded into their stocks. On Saturday we shot the 'trail' walk where they easily won but because an infringement of the 'rules' were disqualified, a charge they tried, unsuccessfully, to fight, However, on Sunday at the paper shoot, they were tearing it up and well ahead of the usual winners that all had custom rifles.  

I couldn't believe that these relatively inexpensive rifles were not only keeping up with but well ahead of with these custom rifles. Granted, a CVA with a Douglas barrel is nothing to sneeze at but did a modern technique, glass bedding the barrel, turn these inexpensive rifles into competition rifles and keep up with some of the best custom rifles local area builders had to offer?

[smokinbuck]

Crawdad,
Being able to use the equipment that you have will ,almost always, trump the cost factor.
Mark

[P.W.Berkuta]

I don't think that "glass bedding" had anything to do with their winning --- as stated it is being able to use your equipment to it best -- and I bet "dollars-to-doughnuts" they practiced a whole bunch with their rifles .

[RichG]

what you hang off of a good barrel will have very little to do with how a gun shoots, as long as it's assembled properly. glass bedding isn't a wonder treatment. If a barrel is properly bedded it shouldn't make any difference. most any properly assembled gun will shoot better than most people can see the rather primitive sights used on traditional muzzle loaders. The accuracy level required for most trail walks is not much. I would suspect that the 2 gentleman are very good shots with whatever they're shooting.  

[bkb]

Back in the late 70's  a friend took me to a shoot in northern Pa.  We had to wade thru about 8" of snow to get to the club. All I had at the time was a CVA Kentucky rifle, percussion, 45 cal. that I put together from a kit. We shot 25,50, and 100yds., at the end of the day I won the 25,50, and 100yd. matches plus I got a award for overall shooting.  The regular club members thought they were being hustled  until  they seen my CVA with Made In Japan stamped on the barrel. To tell the truth I was surprised myself!

[bob in the woods]

One of the main reasons I love muzzleloading, and black powder shooting in general, is that those with more $ than others can't really buy or spend their way to the winner's circle.  It's the person using the rifle that counts the most.

[Bob Roller]

Back in the late 70's  a friend took me to a shoot in northern Pa.  We had to wade thru about 8" of snow to get to the club. All I had at the time was a CVA Kentucky rifle, percussion, 45 cal. that I put together from a kit. We shot 25,50, and 100yds., at the end of the day I won the 25,50, and 100yd. matches plus I got a award for overall shooting.  The regular club members thought they were being hustled  until  they seen my CVA with Made In Japan stamped on the barrel. To tell the truth I was surprised myself!

BEWARE of the new man with only one gun.He probably knows how to use it well.

Bob Roller

[snapper]

does not matter how nice the rifle looks it does not have the ability to shoot well.  

You have to have the shooter and the rifle to be able to consistently win.

Looks is just an added benefit.

Fleener

[Daryl]

That the rifles in question had decent barrels AND that those lads had bed them in glass also shows they most likely worked up accurate loads for them.  This is contrary to what most guys do.  Most will pick a load and think that's good enough.  Those load pickers usually do not enter the winner's circle.
That is my observation on this seemingly strange phenominum. It's not  so strange after all.

[bigsmoke]

Interestingly enough, back in the days when I started muzzleloading, I used a stock, out of the box, T/C Renegade.  And I did my share of winning with it, too.  Somewhere down the line, I improved the rifle with a Douglas Premium barrel and I did a little more winning with it.
All goes to prove that the barrel is important, the load development is important, practice is important, etc.  Of all of those, I think probably practice is the most important factor.
John

[EC121]

As the saying goes: "You can't buy a game/match."  Tennis-golf-shooting.  It is the operator more than the equipment.  That being said, I still like to shoot a nice rifle to look good losing.  

[hanshi]

It seems a lot of people, more or less, look down on factory rifles.  I've owned, hunted and shot targets with quite a few "over the counter" rifles through the decades.  One thing I learned is that spending lots of money doesn't buy lots of accuracy.  The Italian and Spanish barrels are just as good as the expensive ones from American companies.  Even having a custom barrel made at great expense would only "possibly" help the very top shooters.  And these top shooters can often dominate with their "plain" rifles.  I still own a couple of factory rifles and nothing I've had built for even more $$ can shoot any better.

[nosrettap1958]

I disagree completely. Just take a look at what constitutes building a 'Match' grade barrel. Nothing a factory can do could match it.  Please read.

"Some makers, like John Krieger, for example, who produces both cut- and button-rifled barrels, have embraced cryogenic stress relieving, but he makes no accuracy claims for it. Others-mostly folks who are not barrel makers but who are in the cryo business, do claim accuracy benefits for freezing the bejesus out of steel. Krieger is convinced that cryo produces a steel that is easier on tools and machines better. Those who use it all agree, of course, and those who don’t say it doesn’t."

"Before cryoing, Krieger told me in a recent conversation, he would often scrap three or four barrels out of 10 because the deep-hole drilling operation would produce blanks having more than .005-inch run-out when turned on centers. It’s hard to believe that you can start drilling a hole smack in the middle of a 11⁄4-inch-diameter steel bar and after boring 28-30 inches, actually expect to come out within .005 inch of dead center at the other end!"


Read more: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/gunsmithing_rsgunsmith1/#ixzz4DwqXDGGy


And you are assuming those 2 guys were better marksmen, an obvious conclusion, but I don't think they were.

[conquerordie]

I didn't know Krieger made muzzleloading barrels! 

I can have a custom match grade muzzleloader barrel made and still loose to a more skilled shooter.  I think dropping the coin on a better quality barrel in most cases will help with consistency in accuracy, but its the person shooting that determines if the gun as a whole will win a match.

I've glass bedded muzzleloaders and modern guns.  I believe it does help, without a doubt.  But it doesn't pass inspection if shooting in a match were its not allowed.  So these guys got kicked.  I have no doubt that glass bedding helps with the consistency of their shots.

Not blackpowder, but I witnessed my little sister (long time ago) smoke another shooter at the range shooting a $80 .22 rifle she had.  The guy had a nice expensive .22 setup.  Im sure his gun was more accurate, but she could shoot hers better.  You can stack the deck in your favor as much as you want, but if you cant breathe and squeeze right, your gonna loose.

[coutios]

   I've always said it's the nut behind the butt. No amount of high dollar toys are going to make the shot for you..
Regards
Dave

[Candle Snuffer]

I'm of the opinion that the guys knew their rifles well and their rifles fit them well regardless of the glass bedding. It's not beyond reason that a "production" rifle can in fact fit a person well and when said rifle & person work up a good load, it can all come together for them.

Personally I would not glass bed a muzzle loading rifle, but that's just me. My reasoning stands mostly on principle of the idea and respect for traditional muzzle loading with a self imposed cut off date of 1865. What dates others impose (if any) on themselves is strictly up to them.

[zimmerstutzen]

I started shooting back in the 1970's at tide water muzzle loaders near Annapolis.  Several guys,  including Ron Griffie, would show up with the most outrageous side lock guns imaginable.  Once, Ron showed up with a thumb hole stocked flintlock painted metal flake green.   I learned early on, that "purty don't shoot" .  A good barrel, and sights, even if stocked with a pine 2x4 will shoot winning scores.  Too many shooters make the mistake of thinking an expensive custom gun will translate into winning scores.  There is no substitute for knowing your gun.  A good shooter can shoot good scores with the worst production gun.  A bad shooter doesn't become a winner by spending 5 grand on a gun.  I competed many years with a cobbled invest arms Hawken and an H & H barrel.  The production lock and triggers, unfinished kit stock made little difference.

[Bob Roller]

One of the main reasons I love muzzleloading, and black powder shooting in general, is that those with more $ than others can't really buy or spend their way to the winner's circle.  It's the person using the rifle that counts the most.

I used to make a joke about a brass and pine muzzle loader because
some of the imported guns looked like pine with brightly polished brass
trim.A fellow in Kansas used a Bill Large barrel and one of my Ketland
locks,stocked with a 2x6 from a lumber yard and won the state championship with it.
It IS the shooter and this was not a megabuck rifle.

Bob Roller

[okawbow]

I've found that most of the Muzzleloaders I've shot, can be made to be more accurate than I can hold. So part of being a good shooter is working out the best load for a particular gun.

I have a flintlock rifle that seems to shoot well with any reasonable combination of powder, patch and ball. I also have a chunk gun that is very touchy about what patch and powder is used, but will shoot a one hole 10 shot group if loaded right.

I once won a woods walk with an original 36 cal. Half stock percussion rifle I bought for $200. The rifling was half worn away, and I was using a very light load because the gun was 150 years old. I certainly didn't expect the gun to be that accurate, but apparently it was close enough.

[Hungry Horse]

 I for one am glad the old  "I don't care what it looks like guys" that cobbled up some of the ugliest tack drivers ever devised, either got tired of this little joke, or simply died out. Some of the guns these guys baling wired together were literally painful to look at. Now, I don't think every Longrifle has to be a work of art, but it should at least represent a period correct working gun. I shot, and lost, several time against rifles that had modern sights, modern stocks, and glass bedding, and I always felt that it added insult to injury. JMO.

  Hungry Horse

[nosrettap1958]

I for one am glad the old  "I don't care what it looks like guys" that cobbled up some of the ugliest tack drivers ever devised, either got tired of this little joke, or simply died out. Some of the guns these guys baling wired together were literally painful to look at. Now, I don't think every Longrifle has to be a work of art, but it should at least represent a period correct working gun. I shot, and lost, several time against rifles that had modern sights, modern stocks, and glass bedding, and I always felt that it added insult to injury. JMO.

  Hungry Horse

I completely agree HH, it added insult to injury.

I'm not talking about matching up shooters with unequal ability or in other words matching up shooters that can only consistently hit the 9 or 10 ring against shooters that consistently hit the 10 or 10x ring.  All of the shooters present could consistently hit the 10 or 10x ring. In my opinion their glass bedded stocks gave them an unfair advantage.

[oldtravler61]

Shooting bull's eye's are easy. Anybody can do it! Just remember to squeeze the trigger when the sights cross the bull's eye. An yeah don't move the gun till the ball is out the barrel! First thing I was taught when I started shooting. How fancy the gun is. Don't mean squat. An fear the person with one gun. More than likely they know how to shoot it.

[nosrettap1958]

No, its not easy at all.

[bob in the woods]

Personally, I wouldn't glass bed a muzzleloader barrel.  Perhaps at  the breach, but that's it .The barrel supports the forestock, not the other way around. With the lugs slotted in view of barrel /wood movement, I'm happy enough.  You do need a decent barrel, but in my view and experience, a good lock is more important. Cap locks are more forgiving than flintlocks. Many at our club use target rifles made by one of the members. Out of those shooters, 3 or 4 win almost every time. It's not the guns .

[Candle Snuffer]

No, its not easy at all.

I agree. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it.

Now this is where I like shooting at gongs. Take a - 6", 8", 10" gong, and so on and they all become one big bulls'eye, and you'd think a person could run the course of say (50 to 100 yards) with ease, (50 yards - 6",,, 60 yards - 6",,, 70 yards - 8",,, 80 yards - 8",,, 90 yards - 10",,, and 100 yards - 10",,, -  but not so with fixed open iron sights. Now I'm not saying it can't be done but you'd better know your rifle well, and know your windage and elevation.

Here's the best run I ever did;

50y (6") - H H, 60y (6") - H H, 70y (8") - H H, 80y (8") - M H, 90y (10") - H H, 100y (10") - H H