Are we more worried about looks as opposed to performance?

[Long Ears]

I'm confused, when you glass bed a modern rifle you only bed the action and free float the barrel. The reason is to not interfere with the harmonics of the barrel from the high pressure loads. How could bedding a muzzleloader half stock have any affect what so ever on its performance? I'm having a hard time buying into that. You home boys just got out shot. Sorry. IMHO. Bob

[rsells]

For many years, I shot as many matches as I could attend.  I never cared how the competition bedded their barrels.  Back in those days I bedded the breech and tang of every rifle I made, not for accuracy, but because I had a couple rifles come back with the wood behind the tang chip out because of my loose inletting in that area and heavy use. 

I would shoot every weekend if possible, and dry fired my set triggers at a target on the bedroom wall for 20 minutes every night before going to bed.  I think knowing the rifle, working up the load combo, and practice (most important) made the difference in my performance.

The rifle I shot in the early days (11 years) had a $30 dollar barrel on it.  It was still shooting good groups when I let it go, and the rifling in the barrel had been worn slick on one side by the wooden ram rods I had used over the years.  I think the shooter is the key to winning.

I think the quality of the lock used really makes a difference if you are are shooting a flintlock, but again the shooter is the key to winning in this instance as well.

                                                                                         Roger Sells

[bones92]

Agreed... the shooter has a lot to do with it.   I also tend to suspect that sights make a huge difference in consistent, repeatable shots, and hence accuracy.   For example, I always shoot better with thin, crisp front sight blades, like those found on 1903 Springfield rifles.  My eye can line up the blade on a target very precisely with a thin blade, and in a consistently centered sight-picture.

[oldtravler61]

BINGO the sights work for you. You practice not only shooting but holding the gun steady off hand. If you can't hold it on target. Why would you expect to shoot better? Most good shooters I know do a lot of dry firing practice. It helps with your trigger control, breathing and a consistent hold which helps with muscle memory. Repetition does wonders. Along with the right load for your firearm. IMHO

[rhbrink]

Hear! Hear! Now we are talking!

[Hungry Horse]

 For those of you that can't figure out why someone would glass bed a muzzleloader barrel, here is the reason. I live in Northern California, the temperature during the summer months is often over a hundred degrees, sometimes way over a hundred degrees. In the late fall, and winter,  it can rain a consoderable amount, bringing the humidity way up, this, radical difference in the temperature, and going from bone dry to very humid, can cause stocks to swell,and move, a lot. Glass bedding puts a moisture proof barrier between the barrel and the wood. Now with better wood finishes, and sealers, it's not such a problem. But, not so many years ago it was a real problem.

Hungry Horse

[nosrettap1958]

BINGO the sights work for you. You practice not only shooting but holding the gun steady off hand. If you can't hold it on target. Why would you expect to shoot better? Most good shooters I know do a lot of dry firing practice. It helps with your trigger control, breathing and a consistent hold which helps with muscle memory. Repetition does wonders. Along with the right load for your firearm. IMHO

Thanks Captain Obvious. Yea, in theory it works out great, like everything under the sun does, however at the range its completely different.

[Boompa]

One of the main reasons I love muzzleloading, and black powder shooting in general, is that those with more $ than others can't really buy or spend their way to the winner's circle.  It's the person using the rifle that counts the most.

    Agree completely.  I've been involved in many different shooting sports over the years and while the very best, most expensive gun will not win in the hands of a poor marksman, to win and compete consistently you'll need really good equipment.  Unless you own a machine shop this will get expensive. 
    My flintlocks are simple, functional, accurate, and I made them myself with a relatively small investment.

[oldtravler61]

Ok must admit. I was funnin with yeah. They are hard to hit. So I just keep makin im bigger! But I agree with H.H.. There has to be a line drawn some where. Personally I want my gun to be as period correct as I can make it. An perform to. With out the modern sights an barrel bedding stuff. Just my two cents. That's why we call them traditional.

[hanshi]

A good way to shoot better targets is the way I do it.  After firing xx rounds, I tape over all the holes that don't make a group.  Problem solved. 

[Daryl]

LOL!!

[nosrettap1958]

Why wouldn't glass bedding help any rifle? Granted a muzzleloading barrel has thicker walls than a modern barrel and combined with the lower pressures associated with black powder there is less vibration of the barrel but anchoring the breech not the barrel should always help a rifle shoot better regardless if its a muzzleloader or a modern rifle.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Crawdad:  your question is loaded.  It implies that a good looking rifle is probably not a performer, whereas a stock factory rifle, while not being a 'looker', is.  You couldn't be further from the truth.

[Mike Brooks]

Here are a couple things to keep in mind when choosing what should be a good shooting gun, plain or fancy. Breech well seated.If  I see gaps even on high end stuff where the barrel has scooted forward during construction, usually during the process of installing the tang screw the gun will probably need bedded. I see this quite a bit on low and high end guns. Also the barrel lugs need notched for the pins to allow for wood expansion. Once your barrel is well seated and the lugs slotted you pretty much just have to find the correct load. A good fast lock with a good fast liner is also important. Don't matter how much frosting you put on, if it's built right it's going to shoot.

[nosrettap1958]

Good point Mike. Well said!!!

[nosrettap1958]

Crawdad:  your question is loaded.  It implies that a good looking rifle is probably not a performer, whereas a stock factory rifle, while not being a 'looker', is.  You couldn't be further from the truth.

I should not have said "should ALWAYS help a rifle shoot better."   I should have said it MAY help a rifle shoot better.

[stuart cee dub]

I'm pleased that the guys with the fixed up guns did so well.
But saddened and perhaps disappointed that they were disqualified .
I have been at clubs where the rules got'' interpreted ''on the spot consistantly favoring the home club members and their shooting set ups.
Maybe many of our regular readers have seen this as well in their travels .

Nothing is more destructive to our sport .It's narrow minded and insular.
Winning a club match just isn't that important especially if kids or new comers are involved .
This very thing repeated destroyed one of our best local clubs .They started to get a reputation for this behavior and from an outsiders viewpoint it looked more like politics and vanity and less about good sportsmanship and fair play.

I certainly don't know the specifics of course ,maybe they did have cause for a rules disqualification but I simply ask whose agenda was served .Just struck me the wrong way I guess.





 

[nosrettap1958]

I'm pleased that the guys with the fixed up guns did so well.
But saddened and perhaps disappointed that they were disqualified .
I have been at clubs where the rules got'' interpreted ''on the spot consistantly favoring the home club members and their shooting set ups.
Maybe many of our regular readers have seen this as well in their travels .

Nothing is more destructive to our sport .It's narrow minded and insular.
Winning a club match just isn't that important especially if kids or new comers are involved .
This very thing repeated destroyed one of our best local clubs .They started to get a reputation for this behavior and from an outsiders viewpoint it looked more like politics and vanity and less about good sportsmanship and fair play.

I certainly don't know the specifics of course ,maybe they did have cause for a rules disqualification but I simply ask whose agenda was served .Just struck me the wrong way I guess.





 

It was something about being down range. As I was not an officer or one of the range captains, I was not privy to facts surrounding the charges or the conversations and or arguments for or against. My perspective was, however, how can you be considered down range on a woods walk or trail walk shoot.

As I only shot the trails walk course a few times as I mostly participated in the paper shoots, these would qualify you for the state squad for the 'Kentucky' rifle shoot held annually in Kentucky, I was never overly concerned about the trail or woods walk shoot.

[Candle Snuffer]

This whole thing kind of puts me in mind of the "Any Metallic Sight" Rule that is ever more present these days then ever. To many liberties are taken with what we perceive as "traditional Muzzle Loading Firearms" in as much as what's traditional and what is not, through the allowance of modern adjustable sights and apertures being allowed in the AMS matches. I guess what I'm getting at is where do you draw the line?

Let's say (just for sake of argument) that someone figured out how to trick out their barrel channel for better performance. Is this any different from the "AMS" Rule of 20th and 21st Century Adjustable Sights on 17th, 18th, 19th Century represented traditional muzzle loading firearms?

Awareness of club rules is a must, and must be followed...  However, if something hidden away within one's stock that enhanced accuracy and considered "non traditional" then shouldn't non traditional sights that can be seen also be a factor for disqualification?

Just throwing this out here as there could be two sides to every story when it comes to accepted traditional muzzle loading rules.

[nosrettap1958]

I believe it was in a rifleman magazine article where they tested a synthetic stocked rifle and a wood stocked rifle for MOA.  They soaked both rifles in water for a period of time and then re-sighted them in. The synthetic stocked rifles was off but still shot an acceptable MOA whereas the wood stocked rifle was way off so much so that the writer of the article was somewhat shocked by how far off it was.

[rhbrink]

Just my take on the Any Metallic Sight the main reason for it at my home club is that we have many shooters that are "long in the tooth" and a lot just can't see open sights anymore or say that they cannot see them. A any rate if it keeps shooters shooting I'm all for it. For my self 66 years old I can still see the open sights not as well as I used to but I can make them work for me and I have shot both ways and actually see little difference in offhand scores. Now settling down on a bench different story I can do much better with the peep sights. My 2 cents worth.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Regarding the use of aperture sights:  I would hope that we are competing in shooting contests rather than tests of vision.  You cannot hit what you cannot see.  If an aperture sight helps you see the target when open iron sights do not, I'm ok with that.  We have only one big rendezvous a year up here in the Great White North - the BC Rendezvous - and it is attended by abut 140 camps with old and young.  There is at least one rifle event every day for ten days, and awards issued at a social gathering each evening.  The winner's circle is not jammed with people who have had a 'leg up' using aperture sights.  Almost invariably, the first three places are taken by folks with flintlock longrifles with open iron sights.  These are usually trail walk type shooting matches, and often, a tie breaker card determines which of the first two who have aced the trail, is the winner.

[Candle Snuffer]

I'm not advocating we do away with Aperture sights, I'd be lost without them. I'm just shedding some light on what a person does to their rifle to enhance accuracy does not stop in just stock modifications, it also carries over to such things as sight set up, trigger work, comb enhancement, and so forth.

So, if a person did do stock enhancements with the goal of better rifle performance, is that really grounds for dismissing what they achieved in a contest when others (just saying) enhanced their sight picture using non traditional sights. Seems to me it's all under one roof so to speak.

[nosrettap1958]

Well. I was hoping this topic wouldn't degenerate into class warfare between the 'haves' and 'have nots' but as usual, it has.  I didn't know these guys and only saw them once and have no idea if they even competed on a regular basis, heck I can't even remember if their rifles were percussion or flint.  All I remember is what they said about their barrels and how they glass bedded them into the stocks.

Instead of a good discussion about the relative merits of glass bedding a muzzleloading rifle barrel the topic degenerates into something similar to, "I'm the world's greatest shot IMHO and instead of buying that $3,000.00 dollar custom rifle I figured I would just wait for a Cabela's sale and buy that 'off the shelf' Traditions, and it even comes with a starter kit, built in India for $200 bucks and learn to shoot it then I'll win everything since I'm the world's greatest shot, IMHO.  

Give me a break, Please!!!! Hopefully our newer members aren't buying what you're selling as I know first hand that a substandard piece of equipment will never hold up to the constant pounding it will receive during competition.  And competition is a lot of fun and should be an option for all new shooters in their future. But bottom line is, if you want to compete or you don't know if in your future you will want to compete, buy yourself a good solid piece of equipment and that means a custom built rifle.

What makes a good shot? A good gun and $10,000 dollars worth of ammunition. What's a good gun? Something that will not completely wear out shooting $10,000 dollars worth of ammunition.

[Daryl]

My perspective was, however, how can you be considered down range on a woods walk or trail walk shoot.

"Downrange" at any range, or anywhere for that matter such as when hunting, is that direction which is considered dangerous to humans from gun fire from ' the line & direction of fire.