Author Topic: Speaking of jeager rifles...  (Read 6530 times)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Speaking of jeager rifles...
« on: July 11, 2016, 07:32:24 PM »
With all of the discussion lately I'll bring up something that has always had me wondering. Having spent some time with guys who know their original jeager rifles it has been made noticed to me that most if not all of these larger bored guns have rifling twists that are one turn in the length of the barrel. Which, according to the way we do things now shouldn't work. So, what did they know back then that we have since forgot?

My theory, and I may be all wet. Small powder charge and short range shooting. Also why flip up sights were somewhat common to compensate for the small charge and large ball. I'm assuming that in distances under 75 yards a big and slow moving ball would be very effective and would have not needed alot of velocity to kill.....just my view.  ;)
Your view?
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2016, 11:37:45 PM »
No takers eh? :P
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 12:08:13 AM »
Most of what they knew we didn't forget, we just think we are more advanced now, so therefore can do it better. That's why we do it our way  ::)My barrel is 21.25 inches long and has a 1/56 twist. I had to use a two leaf sight. The first is good all the way out to 50 yards. By 75 I'm three inches low, and at 100 something like 7 inches low. The flip up leaf is dead nuts on at 100, about three inches high at 75, but by 125 the ball is dropping something fierce. So when I hunt, I have to remember which leaf in peeking through. When people say these guns were short range options, I'm becoming a believer. I need to chrono it someday. I'm using a 100 grain charge on a .610 ball and a .024 pillow ticking patch. Tight to load, probably not historical, but it works in this gun. Next time I'm out I'll try a lighter charge.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2016, 01:09:10 AM »
Mike:  it is my opinion also that charges in hunting rifles of the 18th century were more what we would call pistol loads today.  I also believe that hunters in that era stalked game to within what we now would call bow range.  We have been corrupted by magnumitis and high velocity suppository rifles, and naturally, transfer this philosophy over to our black powder arms.  This is a mistake when thinking 18th century.
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2016, 01:46:12 AM »
Mike:  it is my opinion also that charges in hunting rifles of the 18th century were more what we would call pistol loads today.  I also believe that hunters in that era stalked game to within what we now would call bow range.  We have been corrupted by magnumitis and high velocity suppository rifles, and naturally, transfer this philosophy over to our black powder arms.  This is a mistake when thinking 18th century.

The late Tom Dawson had a 16 bore Manton flintlock rifle that was marked 1 and 1/2 drams. That is not a
load to hunt in Africa with but it will do for most deer parks.The few originals I have seen with powder
measures or flasks indicated moderate loads.The Modena (Medina)Hawken had an adjustable spout flask
that had a high load of 85 grains and it was a 58 caliber rifle.My grandfather,C.M.Taylor said he never heard
of a heavy charge to kills a deer or a pig or even a bear.He said squirrel loads were on small bore guns was
determined by laying a ball in the palm of one hand and then pouring powder over it until it was covered.
When production muzzle loaders came into the picture that was when the preposterous loads started coming
into the picture and that idiotic idea was based on the old fable that "You can't blow one of these up with
black powder". Going to brass suppository rifles,the old 44-40 WCF accounted for more deer than anything
else until the arrival of nitro powders.

Bob Roller

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2016, 04:28:53 AM »
Agree with Bob. A lot of people have forgot how to hunt. Many only know how to sit in a blind over a bait pile. With there beer , hotseat or heater. An pop the deer or what ever shows up . Not ment to offend anyone but a lot of people just want everything easy. I fell into that bait pile thing for a couple of years. Then I realised I was shooting not hunting. Of well to each his own.

Offline grabenkater

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2016, 03:08:29 PM »
I have hiked in the Alps and regions where these rifles were used to hunt. It reminded me of rugged areas here in WV, *#$@ hard to maneuver a 42" or longer barrel while using both hands to climb. I cannot imagine traipsing around in the mountains and valleys in Switzerland, Germany and Austria with a long rifle and no provision for a sling. I believe that you are on to something, Mike.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2016, 07:03:56 PM »
Forsyth spoke of the light loads used and regulated for in many rifles. He also spoke of how well they merely eouned game.  One of his SxS rifle was 13bore and if he put in more than 1 1/2 drams it would strip.  Also he said it was only good for wounding game. Too, it had a 13" trajectory over 100 yards and thus had NO point blank range.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2016, 07:49:29 PM »
Without getting into a hunting ethics question, we are discussing the fast twist found in many original Jaeger rifles.  From what I have read, the common man was not permitted to hunt in Europe in the Flintlock era.  These guns were built for the nobility, who, judging simply by paintings of them in their finery, may not have been particularly rugged individuals.  This may partially account for gunmakers having to make rifles that suited the soft upper class of Europe.  Just a thought...
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2016, 08:35:28 PM »
Although not jeager's the English firms made many large bore rifles and found out that they needed a slower twist than the one turn in the length of the barrel. Good examples of these are illustrated in J.N. George's book English Guns And Rifles. On plate XI are illustrated three rifles, a Mortimer, a Manton and a Twigg. The Mortimer was one turn in the length of the barrel, 6 bore. The John Manton was cut one half turn in the length of the barrel, 24 bore. Those faster twist gun were accurate but needed smaller charges to be so. Not good for the game they were made for such as the big 5, etc.

Offline grabenkater

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2016, 10:05:52 PM »
Without getting into a hunting ethics question, we are discussing the fast twist found in many original Jaeger rifles.  From what I have read, the common man was not permitted to hunt in Europe in the Flintlock era.  These guns were built for the nobility, who, judging simply by paintings of them in their finery, may not have been particularly rugged individuals.  This may partially account for gunmakers having to make rifles that suited the soft upper class of Europe.  Just a thought...

While that may have applied in some nations, not all were subject to being ruled by the elite. There were many in Germanic regions who hunted, maybe not on the level of their American counterparts but there were many common people with access to firearms in Switzerland for instance.
When a nation forgets her skill in war, when her religion becomes a mockery, when the whole nation becomes a nation of money-grabbers, then the wild tribes, the barbarians drive in... Who will our invaders be? From whence will they come?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 12:18:10 AM »
If hunting relatively small, big game at close ranges, small charges will certainly answer.
I think perhaps there is more to the light charges for 'soft people' than we realize.
Daryl

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Offline Kermit

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 01:36:21 AM »
Mike:  it is my opinion also that charges in hunting rifles of the 18th century were more what we would call pistol loads today.  I also believe that hunters in that era stalked game to within what we now would call bow range.  We have been corrupted by magnumitis and high velocity suppository rifles, and naturally, transfer this philosophy over to our black powder arms.  This is a mistake when thinking 18th century.

Agree completely, Taylor.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 02:53:41 AM »
I could be a "soft person" if I could kill deer with  a gun with a fast twist and a RB. ;D

Of further note, I was just reading in the book on jeagers that Chambers sells (can't remember the title as it's in German....) There is a in depth translation from an 1822 treatise on loading these short hunting guns with hollow base conicals and no patch......food for thought. Maybe they figured that out a 100 years before 1822? I don't know. They stated the greater killing power of a bullet over a RB. Hmmmmm. ???
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 10:58:11 PM »
So, I'm pondering. What if I had Bob Hoyt make up a shorty barrel and have it rifled to shoot .58 minnie style bullets? What twist were those civil war  guns that shot minnie balls?
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Offline Buffaload

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2016, 02:44:18 AM »
1 in 78 in the Springfield I believe.
Ed

mparker762

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2016, 04:03:33 AM »
The 3-band enfield also had 1:78.  Minies were stabilized both from the twist and from the nose-heaviness - if they went cockeyed in flight the wind drag on the light skirt would straighten them out again.  The rifles used as slow a twist as they could get away with, to reduce fouling and improve velocity with the mild charges.  They were too nose-heavy to actually tumble on impact, but they would invariably veer significantly off to one side.  There's some minie gel tests on youtube that are interesting, and tend to dispel some of the Civil War myths about them.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 06:28:02 AM by mparker762 »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2016, 05:46:09 AM »
It's always interesting to hear what works for other people and the the loads with minnie balls are probably adequate but I'm a round ball user and promoter so prefer them. I have said it before but will repeat, the round ball though not the best acording to some is still way under rated as a game getter.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2016, 01:20:31 PM »
1 in 78 in the Springfield I believe.
Ed
Well that certainly isn't going to be compatible with my fast twist quest. ;)
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2016, 02:45:48 PM »
So, I'm pondering. What if I had Bob Hoyt make up a shorty barrel and have it rifled to shoot .58 minnie style bullets? What twist were those civil war  guns that shot minnie balls?

Mike,
My FIRST muzzle loader was a 58 caliber Enfield carbine with a 25" barrel and it shot as good as
could be expected when loaded with a Minie and 70 grains of DuPont 3fg. I'd think a new barrel
made by a competent maker would work even better.In the early 70's I had a repro short Enfield
that shot well with a ball or bullet.
In 1958 I built a 58 caliber half stock using a 33" barrel with a 1:44 twist barrel.the FIRST octagon
barrel Bill Large made once he got his then new shop operational. He gave it to me and it was a
match winner.
The uncivil War barrels were a 1:78 and with a close fitting Minie it should work well.

Bob Roller

mparker762

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2016, 04:00:47 PM »
Well that certainly isn't going to be compatible with my fast twist quest. ;)

The minie was interesting but technologically was a dead end.  They have a problem when firing where the skirt is still expanding into the rifling yet also has to start that heavy slug to rotating without stripping.  The Enfields had extra deep rifling at the breech end to help it get a grip even if it stripped a bit, and the slow twist also helped.  Later enfields had a faster twist but by that point they had figured out that their newer paper patching in their new cartridges would help protect the skirt as it started spinning the bullet while beginning to engage the rifling.  The minie rifles, especially the english ones designed under Whitworth's guidance, were a pretty carefully thought out system of rifle, bullet, and cartridge.

You can get a minie to work with a fast twist low velocity rifle, but you'll need to look at the later enfields and their cartridges.  If you can find some original confederate cartridges from england that would tell you what kind of paper to use.  IIRC the confederates were using a mix of fast and slow twist enfields with the later generation english cartridge.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2016, 04:51:47 PM »
Thanks guys. I'll have to get that German book out and re-read that bit and study the pictures on bullets ca.1822. There is also some info on loading RB in there too.  I'm convinced They had to have been getting good results using RB and fast twist back then or they wouldn't have stuck with the combo for a couple hundred years. I don't know....the search goes ever onward. I must  continue to endeavor to persevere..... ;D
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2016, 10:42:18 PM »
The "minie ball" is basically a dart as is the modern shotgun slug and behaves pretty much as one.  A "dart" is heavier in the nose - think spears, arrows, etc - and is stabilized by the heavy nose.  The skirt prevents blow-by and starts the minie/slug on aimed course.  FWIW. 
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2016, 07:39:42 AM »
All of the latter minnie-ball Enfields made after the 1853, 3 band, had 48" twists to improve their accuracy.
Lads wishing am advantage at Friendship had custom 48" twist barrels fitted to their American made Springfields.  You guys really need to read more history, whether it is from the library or Lymans BP Handbook.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 06:39:01 PM by Daryl »
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Offline Kopfjaeger

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Re: Speaking of jeager rifles...
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2016, 02:46:51 PM »
Guten Morgen,

I have seen a few original Jaeger rifles in museums when I lived ( stationed ) in West Germany for two years. Functional works of art. I even got to shoot in the West German Schutzenschnur.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 04:09:49 PM by Kopfjaeger »
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