Seeking pictures of original H.E. Leman flintlocks

[haddockkl]

The title says it all, I'm after pictures of original flintlock Leman locks, and Leman built rifles. If anyone has any such images I would greatly appreciate if you share them for a project I have in mind. I've attached a shot of a rifle at the Henry Ford museum in Detroit, but it sure looks like it was reconverted to me.
 
Thanks
KH

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

There a few Leman in the ALR Library.
Hurricane

[Bob Roller]

The title says it all, I'm after pictures of original flintlock Leman locks, and Leman built rifles. If anyone has any such images I would greatly appreciate if you share them for a project I have in mind. I've attached a shot of a rifle at the Henry Ford museum in Detroit, but it sure looks like it was reconverted to me.
 
Thanks
KH

That lock is very similar to the Ketland I used to make.

Bob Roller

[timM]

Great Gun Makers for the Early West Vol. II by James D. Gordon.  tim

[Clowdis]

The whole rifle looks "fresh". It must have been a complete restoration. On the other hand, the Henry Ford Museum has some VERY nice stuff.

[smylee grouch]

Yes, Jim Gordon's book has some very nice photo's or you could go to his museum and take your own pics. It's worth the trip.

[haddockkl]

The whole rifle was quite ornate for a Leman, and I don't think the whole rifle was a restock but a presentation piece.
 
 
I intend to get the Gourdon books as soon as I can free up the funds, seems like whenever there is some fun money it turns into something else.

[cshirsch]

There a few Leman in the ALR Library.
Hurricane

[Tanselman]

I'm not sure the above lock is an original flint. While the cock looks pretty good, the frizzen, pan, and frizzen spring all look new to me, and the frizzen spring is way out of position. The border around the lock is still visible under the frizzen spring, which often indicates an original percussion lock was incorrectly converted to a flintlock, as this one appears to be. On most original flints, the engraved border usually is interrupted, i.e. not continuous, where the frizzen spring sits. Shelby Gallien

[Hlbly]

I'm not sure the above lock is an original flint. While the cock looks pretty good, the frizzen, pan, and frizzen spring all look new to me, and the frizzen spring is way out of position. The border around the lock is still visible under the frizzen spring, which often indicates an original percussion lock was incorrectly converted to a flintlock, as this one appears to be. On most original flints, the engraved border usually is interrupted, i.e. not continuous, where the frizzen spring sits. Shelby Gallien

This is obviously a poor attempt to make a flintlock out of a percussion. Back in the ‘60s and ‘70s lots of antique dealers actually believed that all full stock guns were supposed to be flintlock.

[rich pierce]

You all are probably right but the cock looks much more original than the pan and frizzen spring and so on. Locks like this are confusing to me.

[cshirsch]

I realize it is a funky looking lock but I have examined the pair of matching rifles and my opinion is they were actually made this way.  I realize you guys may not know me but I have some experience in this field.  I know, it's crazy.

 

[Mtn Meek]

I agree with Mr. Hirsch that the lock he pictured is, in all likelihood, in its original flint condition.

There is a Chief's grade Leman rifle pictured in Rifles of the American Indians by Gale, Ness, and Mikelson (pages 11-16) that has a very similar lock with the same frizzen spring located high on the nose of the plate just like the lock pictured my Hirsch.

[rich pierce]

It requires a story, I think. Here goes. Leman gets an order for flintlock rifles in the 1840s and is short of flintlocks and converts at least one percussion lock using parts laying around.

[Hlbly]

I am baffled as to how anyone could think that third lock pictured is original flint. The frizzen spring is a terrible attempt, the pan is much too low on the barrel and too far forward. The cock is an old one, but those were available years ago because people actually took them off because they didn’t like the looks of a double throat hammer. If I ever end up with a really bad conversion I will know where to market it.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... Gerald,... I will buy any poorly  converted Tennessee rifles you want to move and set them back to caplock,... !!! ... kinda fond of "cap & ball" hog rifles myself,... !!!... regards, CCF....

[Mtn Meek]

Here is the other rifle I spoke of with similar lock.


Rich's story is a plausible one concerning how these Leman rifles and locks came to be.

There is another story concerning these rifles.  Back some 70+/- years ago, someone found a whole bunch of Leman rifles in a warehouse still in the original crate they had been shipped in from the Leman factory.  The crate contained 10 or 12 un-issued Leman rifles in percussion and flint ignition.  These rifles are scattered around in different collections now.  A percussion rifle is in the Museum of the Fur Trade.  Jim Gordon may have another.  Larry Ness has the one pictured above.

I was talking with Jack Brooks about these flint Lemans with the 1840 date on the lock.  He said he has had two of them come through his shop and knew of a few others.  The two he worked on had very poor quality locks that were barely functional, but looked like they were original flint locks.

One would probably have to be able to examine these rifles in person to be convinced, but they're clearly not a "one off".

[cshirsch]

It seems that some are hung up in the world of 'anything out of the ordinary can't be correct'.  One thing I am sure of with antique guns, as soon as someone says it was never done, one shows up.  I am open to learning new things.  It makes my life much easier.  Mtn Meek, thanks for posting.  Chris

[Hlbly]

Wonder where Leman got his Tig welder to put the pan on the percussion plate?

[Hlbly]

On the last lock picture, look at the fresh drag marks on the barrel flat from the frizzen being opened. Should we see that on an original flint gun?

[rich pierce]

Wonder where Leman got his Tig welder to put the pan on the percussion plate?

Could have bolted it on like Germanic flintlocks. We are all guessing here. Some offer ideas and others offer definitive conclusions. It’s often hard to be conclusive without an in hand exam and a secret video encompassing the life of the gun from its origin. Those are mighty scarce.

[Hlbly]

They are obviously not bolted on.

[cshirsch]

We try to post photos to help us learn about new and different things.  In vain.  Too bad.

[Mtn Meek]

I suspect the Leman workers put the fence, pan, and frizzen bridle on the lock plate the same way the Birmingham lock makers were doing it on their locks.

In 1852, the Ewing brothers ordered a number of Indian rifles from Henry Leman in both flint and percussion.  In filling the order, Leman wrote to explain that some of the rifles he shipped had "full skeleton [water-proof] Locks, the most expensive, which I was at last obliged to use.  And I mention this so that it cannot be expected hereafter to find them on the Rifles."  (James A. Hanson, Firearms of the Fur Trade, pages 375-6)

I don't think these were the same locks that are dated 1840, but it does show that Leman was making rifles with this same style of lock as late as 1852.

[westbj2]

On page 14 of RL Wilson's book "Peacemakers" a Leman Lancaster 1840 rifle is shown.  About a year before this book came out, a customer brought in a pair of Leman rifles that were mates to the illustrated rifle.  These rifles were made to a pattern, one being about an inch longer than the other.  Their condition was so outstanding that I was concerned that they may be the handiwork of someone from back in the 1950's.  I asked the owner if I could take the locks off and look inside.  He said go ahead.  Inside of lock and mortise were dirty in the right places and light traces of rust on the metal. In about 1 minute, I satisfied myself that the guns were ligit and real.  Ended up buying the guns and in turn they went as a pair to a Colorado collector.  This would have been about 1995.'
Owner told me that the family was from Pennsylvania and brought them along when they moved to Minnesota about 1890.  I always assumed that the picture in Wilson's book was likely a picture of one of the above rifles. I don't believe they had ever been fired .
Jim Westberg