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Author Topic: Would I be Courting Disaster?  (Read 8925 times)

Offline draken

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Would I be Courting Disaster?
« on: July 21, 2016, 07:05:10 AM »
Some time ago I came into possession of a B-Weight swamped barrel from one of the top manufacturers. It must have once been part of a whole gun because of the installed breech plug and dovetails for sights and under lugs.    I could put this to use as a Left hand rifle except for one major problem: there is a touch hole liner on the right-hand side.

Would I be inviting disaster if I replaced the touch hole liner with a threaded steel plug and relocated the touch hole on the left-hand side?   

This sounds risky I agree; but anyone know of this ever being done.?

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Offline David Rase

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2016, 08:07:16 AM »
If it were mine, I would shorten the breech end of the barrel until all indications of the touch hole were gone and then rethread and reinstall the breechplug.  You should only be cutting off about 3/4".
David
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2016, 09:14:50 AM »
 I would have to say it probably isn't authentic, but it has been done by several modern muzzleloader manufacturers without problems. In fact some manufacturers prefer putting the clean out screw on the off side.

  Hungry Horse
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Offline Goo

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2016, 03:22:49 PM »
The previous suggestion of shortening the barrel at the breech is a very good solution and I have heard that it was done by gunsmiths in the past.   Do you have access to a lathe ?   a southbend heavy 10 or a S.bend 10k with the bigger size spindle through hole will do it.
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2016, 05:24:19 PM »
HELLO!!!!! He said it has been dovetailed top, and bottom. Shortening the breech will move these back a couple of inches, and could cause sighting problems, and problems securing the barrel without it looking like a hatchet job.

  Hungry Horse
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 06:00:09 PM »
Quote from: Hungry Horse on July 21, 2016, 05:24:19 PM
HELLO!!!!! He said it has been dovetailed top, and bottom. Shortening the breech will move these back a couple of inches, and could cause sighting problems, and problems securing the barrel without it looking like a hatchet job.

  Hungry Horse
We are only talking about 3/4", not a couple of inches.  Countless originals have been shortened this way.  As for the rear sight, since this barrel was acquired we have no clue if the existing location works for the new owner or not.  Many originals have multiple rear sight dovetails cut and filled, presumably done to move the rear sight forward as the rifle owners eyes aged as well as shortening the barrel.  This would be a much more historical correct fix than plugging a touch hole, and a heck of a lot more safer.
David
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 06:15:23 PM by David Rase »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2016, 07:18:13 PM »
I don't see why plugging the existing liner and adding another on the left side would be a problem.
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 07:26:03 PM »
I don't think it would be a real safety concern either , [ if done properly ]  but , like the plugged hole in the dam, everyone's eyes will always be on it.   I'd just go ahead and rebreach it ...or....trade it .
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 07:27:16 PM by bob in the woods »
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Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 07:40:27 PM »
Quote from: draken on July 21, 2016, 07:05:10 AM
Some time ago I came into possession of a B-Weight swamped barrel from one of the top manufacturers. It must have once been part of a whole gun because of the installed breech plug and dovetails for sights and under lugs.    I could put this to use as a Left hand rifle except for one major problem: there is a touch hole liner on the right-hand side.

Would I be inviting disaster if I replaced the touch hole liner with a threaded steel plug and relocated the touch hole on the left-hand side?   

This sounds risky I agree; but anyone know of this ever being done.?


I would sell the barrel and buy another then build it from scratch. By the time you put the extra work into this barrel if you have the skill to cut - re-thread & re-breach you would be better off starting with a new barrel -- just my opinion ???.
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Offline L. Akers

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2016, 11:05:54 PM »
Henry Nock's breeches were done this way--touchhole on one side and a plug on the other.
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Offline SingleMalt

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2016, 11:58:55 PM »
With the comparatively low pressures black powder operates at, I don't see a problem.  I'd use pretty fine threads, maybe 32 per inch.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2016, 12:23:42 AM »
Shorten the barrel and make a new plug like this? They are a pain in the neck to clean, however.

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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2016, 01:27:35 AM »
No one asked if you had a lathe capable of re-threading a breech?   If not, the cut-off option is pretty much out of the question unless you have or can make a breech mill and a piloted tap.   

Of course,  you could find a gunsmith to re-breech the barrel for you.   
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Goose

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2016, 03:54:57 AM »
A drill press with a rotating table would also work. Rotate 90 degrees,  clamp the barrel and use the chuck to tap.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2016, 04:47:12 AM »
These are just some rough figures on the strength of a .250 plug made of the same material as a grade 5 bolt. The figures are estimated on a barrel with a .250 wall of mild steel and about 50 caliber.
 Let us say the charge develops a chamber pressure of 15000 psi. That is somewhere around average for a muzzle loader heavy load. With a chamber pressure of 15000 psi there would be 735psi pressure on a plug with a diameter of .250.  The shear strength of the same plug would be 3683 lbs.
  Dave Crisalli can give you exact figures if he has time.   I estimate the plug would be about 5 times stronger than need be. Maybe there are some engineers here who could correct me if I'm wrong.
http://tinelok.com/grade-5-vs-grade-8-fasteners/
 some English flintlocks had a plug on the opposite side of the touch hole. I have done it before with no problems on an inset breech.  Good fit is required
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 04:50:39 AM by jerrywh »
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Offline kutter

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2016, 06:29:47 AM »
Put a threaded plug  in it with a counter sunk head ( counter sink doesn;t have to be all that deep. Tighten it down good , cut off the plug just shy of the bbl surface and light peen the remaining standing head. Then face it off and you'll never see the plug.
Clean it up on the inside so you don;t snag the cleaning jag and patch or leave a nook for fouling to hide.
Go on with your project.

 A small dia plug is as secure at the breech when fitted well as a vent or even the breech plug itself. They all feel the same breech PSI,,just different totals because of their varying diameters. psi/per sq inch

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Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2016, 06:45:08 AM »
Quote from: P.W.Berkuta on July 21, 2016, 07:40:27 PM
Quote from: draken on July 21, 2016, 07:05:10 AM
Some time ago I came into possession of a B-Weight swamped barrel from one of the top manufacturers. It must have once been part of a whole gun because of the installed breech plug and dovetails for sights and under lugs.    I could put this to use as a Left hand rifle except for one major problem: there is a touch hole liner on the right-hand side.

Would I be inviting disaster if I replaced the touch hole liner with a threaded steel plug and relocated the touch hole on the left-hand side?   

This sounds risky I agree; but anyone know of this ever being done.?


I would sell the barrel and buy another then build it from scratch. By the time you put the extra work into this barrel if you have the skill to cut - re-thread & re-breach you would be better off starting with a new barrel -- just my opinion ???.

You are getting a lot of options here -- BUT -- I stand by my original comment -- "sell the barrel and get a new one"! All the other replys will work IF you can do the work and how much time do you want to invest in the job -- what IF you screw it up? Now you have something that no one will buy - think about it ;).
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2016, 07:48:55 AM »
 I have the most fun doing things I doubt I can do. Easy stuff is boring. Acer had a good idea. you could make a flint breech the same way. Kutter's idea is pretty sharp also. Put that plug in liek he said and nobody will ever know it is there. Loktite it aslo. Loktite 380.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 07:51:30 AM by jerrywh »
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Swab

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2016, 09:42:37 AM »
Quote from: L. Akers on July 21, 2016, 11:05:54 PM
Henry Nock's breeches were done this way--touchhole on one side and a plug on the other.

Care to elaborate?  Are you referring to his volley guns?
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Swab

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2016, 09:46:17 AM »
Quote from: jerrywh on July 22, 2016, 07:48:55 AM
I have the most fun doing things I doubt I can do. Easy stuff is boring. Acer had a good idea. you could make a flint breech the same way. Kutter's idea is pretty sharp also. Put that plug in liek he said and nobody will ever know it is there. Loktite it aslo. Loktite 380.

The problem is most people are scared to even try simple things.  I may be young but Ive learned that the biggest failure is to fail to try.
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2016, 01:41:08 PM »
Quote from: Swab on July 22, 2016, 09:42:37 AM
Quote from: L. Akers on July 21, 2016, 11:05:54 PM
Henry Nock's breeches were done this way--touchhole on one side and a plug on the other.

Care to elaborate?  Are you referring to his volley guns?


To make this style of breech it is a simple matter to drill a hole ALL the way thru,in one side
and out the other. One side get the flash hole and the other gets a threaded plug. The threads
can be the same on both sides or different. I think the Chambers touch holes are  3/8x32,a
special thread for thin wall barrels and a good idea.
I have such a breech that I made in a GM 1"x33x50 caliber and IF you have the machines they
are not hard to make.

Bob Roller
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2016, 04:05:32 PM »
Quote
The problem is most people are scared to even try simple things.
I have to agree with this and other replies.  I wouldn't have even asked the question.  I would have already done it an reported the results.
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2016, 07:10:00 PM »
Just cut in off. Square the end and rebreach it. Remember back then they didn't have modern machines. As other's have said the sight dovel tails can be filled an moved. Same as the lugs. Easiest is sell it an buy something else.
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Offline frogwalking

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2016, 07:26:58 PM »
You could take advantage of the situation by direct drilling the leftie flash hole, then coning the inside through the existing hole on the right side.  Then  plug the right side, file the plug flush and pretend the entire thing was done on purpose.  Note:  I am just a frog, so if this is tried, and does not work: what can you do?
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Offline little joe

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Re: Would I be Courting Disaster?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2016, 11:19:03 PM »
If you call the bbl maker and explain the problem he most likely take care of you for a reasonable fee.Jason at Rice did one for me and Ed Rayl did the other.
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