Thoughts on converting a percussion to flintlock

[bones92]

I have, on occasion, considered the idea of converting a percussion to flintlock by means of replacing the powder drum with an integral pan and frizzen unit.  Such a design would facilitate switching between caplock and percussion by merely swapping the drums, swapping hammer and cock, and installing the frizzen spring.   This would allow the same basic lock mechanism to be used in either configuration.

Wouldn't be for the true purist, but I can see where a lot of shooters would like such an option.

[axelp]

Would you also need to us a different load combination, and/or adjust your sights every time you switched from flint to percussion?

Everyone I have heard of that has a convertible lock gun, ends up leaving it predominantly to one or the other ignition type.

Many folks seem to be happier just having two complete guns.

[bones92]

Ken, I tend to agree.  But it's fun to think about such things.  It would be fun to make something like this, if I just had the shop, the tools and the know-how. 

[bob in the woods]

Constant re change ie removal of the drum is a recipe for thread wear and eventual failure. Some 25 years ago,  this seemed to be a popular idea [ convertibles ] and a friend had one. It wasn't long till he left it in the flintlock configuration. His reasoning at the time was to have the percussion option for it's reliability when hunting. [ another popular notion back then]  

[Dave Patterson]

Bones, at least you're doing your converting in the "right" direction (flint to percussion), in my experience anyway, and for what that's worth.

I got my first ML rifle as a trade at a pawnshop, and thought I'd made a heckuva find:  a Lyman GPR .50, with both flint and percussion locks, drum, and all to "fit" to the flint breechplug.

Well, apparently, the original owner attempted to do his own converting, and it didn't work out so purty good.

By the time he got done, he had the touch hole wallered out so bad after drilling out from the stock Lyman 6mm to 1/4-28, the shoulderless touch hole liners that came in the trade would wiggle their own way right into the chamber if not watched closely, and the percussion drum never would tighten down and stay put under recoil.

He also had "fit" the stock Lyman percussion lockplate to the position of the drum inserted into the flint touch hole... and NOTHIN' fit right (the Lyman plate is pre-inlet for their percussion breech/bolster, and the flint breech/touch hole is quite a ways forward of where that lockplate inlet lines up).  The drum inlet he'd filed into the lockplate looks like he'd done the job with a chainsaw, and did nothing whatsoever to support a drum. 

And, to top it off, with the flint breech touch hole being so far forward of the percussion breech touch hole, hammer-to-nipple geometry never would line up, even with heating and bending the stock hammer.


With a lot of reading here on the forums, a lot of time spent simply allowing ideas to gel into plans, and an awful lot of trading out parts, I've finally got a flint GPR that shoots consistently, and am most of the way toward "fixing" the percussion system (not a big deal:  fit a 9/16" diameter Leman drum; drill/tap for the nipple; bend the hammer just a tad, to fit the new drum & nipple angle).

Eventually, I'll simply buy a stock .54 GPR percussion barrel, and leave the flint-breeched .50 I've got for flint only. 

As to my earlier comment about converting in the "right" direction:  from what I'm told, converting from percussion to flint is often much simpler than the oppostite; if a guy builds a rifle from ground up for a percussion system, then converts to flint, although the lock conversion can be time consuming and labor intensive, at least the touch hole position remains the same (unless, of course, you have a bolster blocking your view... ).

[bob in the woods]

I believe that the term" converting from percussion to flintlock" is a misnomer.
What is being proposed is a dual ignition i.e. switching back and forth between P and F
Not a good idea .

[Turtle]

 Just a thought. If building from scratch, wouldn't using L+Rs flint and mule ear  locks be the best option? This would prevent stress on a screwed in drum. One could use a touchhole liner and nipple with the same threads.  Don't get me wrong, I see no reason to do this. I shoot only flinters.
                                    Turtle

[smylee grouch]

At one time I had a two barrel/two lock gun. Never liked it that much so made another stock and was alot more satisfied with it's performance.

[bgf]

I have a conversion that goes from flint to percussion by changing the lock only.  I won't give any details so as to not give anybody a potentially dangerous idea, but I will say that the percussion is subtly faster.  Even so, I shoot it as flint all the time.  Percussion is boring and a flintlock surprisingly seems to perform more reliably in wet or muggy weather.  In fact, I'm seriously considering putting the percussion lock back into its original plate and trading it for another flintlock.

This is a chunk gun, but my take is that if you can shoot a flintlock, you'll probably always prefer it, and if you cant, percussion is the only choice available .

That said, I like the creativity of your idea and it would be interesting option on a hunting or target rifle, not so much to change ignition type frequently, but to offer option with maximal parts overlap and to use substitute powder in a pinch.

[bones92]

bgf, that sounds intriguing.  I suspect the percussion lock configuration has a drum fixed to the lock plate aimed at the vent hole so that the flash from the cap is directed right into the vent.

That's actually a neat idea, now that I think about it.  Could probably take a standard drum and weld it to the lockplate, just cutting off the threads.

[bob in the woods]

That would put a lot of pressure on the plate when fired , not to mention gas cutting ??  Lots of smart people back in the day, so I don't suppose they threaded the drum into the barrel for no good reason.
Just my 2 cents

[Roger B]

We once had a fellow in Oklahoma who did so well with his flint gun in the percussion matches that they banished him from the percussion ags on grounds that "flint ain't percussion".  His answer was to fit a left handed percussion lock to his right handed flint rifle and just keep on winning.  Because the touch hole was open either way, I don't think he changed his load between ignition systems. 
Roger B. 

[Hungry Horse]

 I vaguely remember an article about a couple of guys that built a little steel block with a nipple in it, that wedged under the leading edge of the frizzen, and on top of the pan. The flint was removed from the cock, and a piece of steel was clamped in its place with a recess for the nipple. The pan was primed, the nipple contraption was put in place, and fired with a cap, just like a percussion.
 I think it was declared too dangerous to shoot at matches, due to the questionable security of the nipple block.

  Hungry Horse

[Scota4570]

I've seen an original European pistol like that.  The frizzen had the vertical part removed.  A nipple was screwed into the top of the frizzen/pan cover.  A new hammer was made. 

I bet it would be extremely reliable. I would envision also priming the pan. 

If a person machined a nice hammer that fit in the jaws, with a recess for the cap, that would work. I would also cut away the front of the hammer recess to allow the pan to open.  I might also drill a hole in the pan to vent the gas, so the pan did not  auto open. I would have to play with it to see.

A frizzen hold closed latch could me machined into a new made hammer.   

[Mike_StL]

I bought a dandy little 36 caliber rifle in percussion that had all the earmarks of a gun that was converted to flint.  The touch hole was replaced by a drum and an insert was installed in the flint jaws and the pan was filed off.



The lock is an L&R Manton lock.  It was a simple matter to buy a new Manton lock from L&R and make a liner to fit the drum threads.

Obviously that is not the stock. 

[Hungry Horse]

Scota4570 got me thinking. What about a field conversion that has the battery of the frizzen removed (or broken off)the top of the pan cover tapped for a nipple, and then soldered to the bottom of the pan? The touch hole could be opened up to make it self prime. It would sure make a cool field conversion, and get no end to second looks from everybody you shoot with.

   Hungry Horse

[Scota4570]

An additional thought would be that by keeping the pan closed the gas has a large area to act upon.  This larger area can create lots of force.  This is why a 1911 colt ace floating chamber 22 conversion works.  It might blow the lock right off?  I have no idea. 

Next time I can, I'll take some pictures of the originals I wrote about before.