Carving Question

[J.Karl]

I almost have my first build complete, Chambers Issac Haines, and would like to put some carving on the butt. I tried my hand at the Haines relief carving in RCA, and well, I need to practice more. I looked through all the Lancaster examples in RCA and Kindig's book and this is what I ended up with. I know it's a bit sloppy but with a little more practice I think I can pull it off. Before I go replicating this till I'm happy, I was wondering if any of you would be willing to help me out. First, do you feel this is appropriate for an early Lancaster? Second, while I wasn't trying emulate any particular maker I was worried it may be too close to one of the Dickert rifles and I didn't want to cross any style lines?  This is my first attempt and I'm grateful for any advice or pointers anyone is willing to offer.

[smylee grouch]

Thats a good pattern for an eary Lancaster gun. I think you need to smooth out those volutes so they dont make any corners in their arc's. I don't know if I said that right but sharp, real sharp carving tools and practice drawing the pattern will help alot. Keep at it, and good luck.

[M. E. Pering]

J. Karl,

Firstly, unless there is something I am not seeing, this is not relief carving, but rather, incise carving.  Secondly, I do believe it very easily could have appeared on an early Lancaster style rifle.  Thirdly, why not practice it even if you don't use it?  It can only make you a better carver.  It is simple, which means it is easy to practice, and it will help you get your line depth practiced.

Since this is your first gun, don't try for anything to elaborate.  The simplicity of this design should be easily achievable with a little practice.  In fact, a beginner can achieve pretty good results if they practice just a little bit.  When I started with relief carving, I practiced my first design several times before applying it to the rifle.  But this is incise carving, which is much more quickly mastered. 

Another thing... I wouldn't worry about crossing stylistic lines so much.  I have looked at many, many different schools of embellishment, and none seem to follow anything specific, with the exception of patch box design of a couple schools.  Now individual carvers did have their own styles.  Like J.P. Beck outlined his relief carving deeply, whereas most other makers didn't, but not in all cases did he do this.  Carving, like engraving, was probably just personal style, and really doesn't cross stylistic lines really.  It was either Baroque, or more likely, Rococo.  So unless you are making a bench copy of a specific gun, I focus more on the carving that was common to the period of time which the rifle comes from.

Matt

[Dave B]

This is a good place to start. Don't shy from copying original designs. Get familiar with how the scrolls are shaped. You have some kinks in your scrolls that should be worked out in your pencil drawing before you cut into the wood. Pencils and erasers are cheep. Wood not so much. Use of patterns was common place in Europe. I have picked up a thin brass pattern that was used by a period smith out of the North Hampton school of gunmaking in the Lehigh valley. So don't be afraid to follow suit. Trying to free hand a drawing  can be problematic for those of us artistically challenged. Use of graph paper  laid over a good copy of an original butt stock picture enlargement from a copy machine will give you helpful information on the proportion of the elements in reference to each other. Once you are happy with your pencil drawing then pick up the chisel. I struggled with my carving till I got a video that showed the way a master approached the process. It was Wallace Gussler's carving a Kentucky rifle from American Pioneer video. Well worth the price. I can also sing a few bars of Barbra Ellen if you like. ...... well maybe not.

[David R. Pennington]

All sounds like good advice. The way my grandmother sang it it was 'Barbree AAllen'.

[elkhorne]

J.Karl,
Good luck on your carving. Read all the threads the masters on this forum have posted on carving and most importantly sharpening and keeping your chisels and gouges "scary sharp" as several like to say. I have been to several classes and still not seen a easy technique for sharpening. I have been practicing and working on a sharpening template to use with my Veritas sharpening jig  from plexiglass o hold my DMT stones as Mark Elliott discusses using. The YouTube that has helped me is one called "ask woodsman" and he has numerous videos on sharpening. also there is a lady that has a number of carving and sharpening videos on YouTube named "Mary May" and she shows techniques for free hand sharpening of v tools and gouges. Those have helped me and now I am trying to master the sharpening before progressing with my carving adventures. Please show us some pictures of you Isaac Haines rifle as you progress. I am also in the build of one and have wrestled with a potential carving pattern as well as a patchbox pattern for an early Lancaster by Haines. You are on the right track with this thread and I am sure others will chime in to share their advice as this is the greatest place to learn I know. Good luck and keep learning and practicing.
Welcome to the fold.
elkhorne

[Mikecooper]

I addition to what everyone else said.  To me those grooves look wide and shallow.  I would suggest a sharper angle v gouge.    For relief carving where the carving is higher than the surrounding surface I would suggest cutting along the pencil line with a knife point or stabbing with a very narrow chisel then cut away wood to the line. Don't go too deep,  a 16th inch is plenty for raised relief carving.  It's easier to follow the pencil line doing that verses trying to follow the line with a V gouge with no cut to help guide it.   

[Mike Brooks]

First off, I'm no great shakes as a carver when compared to many on this forum, so take this for what it's worth. When using a "V" tool I use a pretty smallish one and keep it sharp. I ALWAYS drive it with a mallet, never push it by hand. When you make curves turn with your waist, not your wrists. Draw and re draw your carving untill it is perfect. Then quit for the day and look at it again the next day. I will sometimes spent 5 or 6 hours drawing out carving and then come back out the next day and erase all of it and start over.

[J.Karl]

I appreciate all the guidance and  I'm gonna keep at it. My plan is to  try to get my incised carving down before I give relief a try again. I had some trouble with the grooves, I noticed my depth really varies when I go into a scroll or turn. I drew a few more designs that have more curves and scrolls, I think Ill try to tackle them to work on this.

[sz]

I agree with Mike about driving the tool with a hammer instead of trying to push it by hand.

Also, I use a 60 degree V tool and a 90 degree.

 Lean it so one edge is making a cut straight up and down.  That gives you crisp sharp edges on your carving. Sharpen it like a razor.  It must be a good tool and it must be sharp enough to easily cut a hair with no "drag". 

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi J.

Welcome to ALR.  You are in the right place.  I commend you for not jumping in and carving on your rifle stock right away.  As usual, Brooks has hit the nail squarely on the head, the drawn design must be good.  If it's not, how can the carving be good?

On learning to carve, take a look at this recent thread.... http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40838.0

Also, there are many more discussions on carving available via the Search function here.

Good luck, and practice, practice, practice.

[dogcatcher]

I found this link to be one of the best about carving tutorials  that I have even read.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=23123.msg0#new

I thought it was good enough that I saved it in pdf format and then printed it out so that I always have it available. 

[David R. Pennington]

One discipline I had to learn was to keep the tools sharp, not sharpen them when they became dull. I spend almost as much time sharpening the tools as cutting with them. A piece of leather glued to a handle of wood stays near at hand and every now and then a few strokes will keep a keen edge. After a while they need dressed back up on a stone to keep the edges true. I like hard black arkansas stones. I also use manmade stones for rough shaping or truing up, as they cut rapidly. The hard arkansas cuts pretty quick and leaves an almost polished surface.
After a while it becomes second nature to hone as you go. As soon as it feels like you have to apply more pressure to coax off the shaving its time to hone.
Another trick I learned years ago was to true up my sharpeneing stones every now and then to keep the surface flat. All you need is an old piece of window glass to lay on the bench, a handful of sand and some light oil and rub the stone over the glass till it is flat again..

[Pete G.]

Use some sheet brass to make a template for your volutes (and fiddle with it enough to get it right). That way you can sketch a proper scroll however many times you like and use it for practice . When it comes time to put your design on the stock you may or may not be able to use the template. However you go about it sketch it in and fix any area that are not right. Let it sit at least overnight and fix it again. Repeat if necessary. You won't be sorry.

[J.Karl]

I'm going to give all these tips a try. Never thought of making a template. I was using a French curve where I could and free handing the rest. As the old saying goes, back to the drawing board.  Thanks to all for your help and advice. I'm gonna start over and look at my design, sharpen my tools, and work towards a better product.

[petera]

Not to blow my own horn much, but there are two extensive chapters in my book, "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" - one is on the Art, and the second, on carving itself.  All of the above responders are correct:  your incised carving is not the problem.  Your drawing is the problem.  Use your eraser twice as much as the lead end of your pencil.  I too now use a parting tool, a very narrow one (30 or 45 degree), but I drive mine with a very light engraving hammer, which gives me much better control of depth and direction.  Hope this helps.   PAA

[Acer Saccharum]

First off, I'm no great shakes as a carver when compared to many on this forum, so take this for what it's worth. When using a "V" tool I use a pretty smallish one and keep it sharp. I ALWAYS drive it with a mallet, never push it by hand. When you make curves turn with your waist, not your wrists.

I agree with Mike on this one. Carving best done standing up. Tap with a mallet. Walk around the carving, keeping your wrist stiff. Very light, rapid taps with the mallet will yield a smoooooth curve.

Same thing in engraving to get a smooth curve. Walk around the turns with your feet, not your hands.

[J Henry]

  "You Tube"  great source of information,with Video's,,,

[Hemo]

I have used a little "v" palm tool with success doing incised carving and starting raised carving. If I keep it really, really scary sharp and tend carefully to the tip honing and stropping, I find I can do fairly well controlled incised carving and starting raised carving without having to use a mallet, and without tearing the grain. If it's way sharp, it goes through hard wood like a hot knife through butter. You need to keep your fingertips and thumb tips close against the tip of the tool and the wood to get good control.

Here are a couple of pics of a gun I did primarily using my little "v" palm tool:



Final finish was not yet applied at the time of these pics.

Most of the time, I use Pfeil gouges of various curvatures to "stamp in" curves now, but the cost of buying a wide variety of widths and curves can add up. I've had a number of years to build up a good selection. Going with a "v" tool (beginning with lots of practice on scrap pieces) may be a cheaper alternative.

Good luck,

Gregg

[rich pierce]

Nice work, Gregg!

[Jerry V Lape]

I tried learning to carve on my own - took a 3 day class with Jim Kibler and Ian Pratt and learned I was going in the wrong direction fast.  Best investment of time and money I have made in gun building.  There are others out there giving similar classes.  I figure it cost me about the same as buying a band saw and it was actually a better tool. 

[M. E. Pering]

J. Karl, here is a really simple design for you from a recent gun of mine.  What I do is practice on scraps I cut off of my stock blanks, if I feel practice is necessary.  This one I didn't practice.  But you can see, it is both incise and relief.  In my experience when I first started relief carving, was not to go to deep.  If I was too shallow, more wood could alway be removed, but it is a harder task to put it back on.  The raised carving is only about 1/16th inch high at it's highest.



As I said before... Start simple and work up to more complex work.  This is a pretty simple carving, when you really look at it.  But I want it simple.  I try and build guns that fit with the time period, and how they might have looked.  This would have been considered pretty high art for a York county 1780s gun.

My point should be that you should practice on scrap.  This is how I learned, since I had no great master to teach me anything about it.  I did have books and pictures though, and when I started I didn't even know how to sharpen a chisel.  Persistence will win the day.  I hope this helps.

Matt