Author Topic: Comments invited on an "original" "restocked" rifle (Read 12683 times)

Molly · « **on:** July 30, 2016, 09:25:11 PM »

I have been asked to present this topic on behalf on an acquaintance. I do not own this rifle and have no personal interest in it other than that of a "general" nature. Don't bust my chops at the questions and also know I have no conclusions but am just going to pass comments on to someone else.

First, a little about it.

The barrel is just over 46 inches long, very heavy and the bore looks very good. It has the initials "E S" on the top but no other marks. The lock is marked but it is very faint and the words are ASHMORE Warranteed

The stock is solid and not broken, split or damaged in any way. The finish looks good and the in letting is also very good. It has had a touch hole liner installed. The lock and trigger seem to function well and it would probably fire if one were so inclined. One thought is that it has been made into a "shooter" by a past owner. There seems to be no doubt that the barrel is old as is the brass trigger guard and butt plate. One serious issue is that it has been "restocked". The finish does not look as it probably should on an original yet when the lock was removed the inside does have an old look about it. The ramrod is acknowledged to be a modern replacement. A very highly regarded NC expert has personally inspected it and pronounced it as a restocked rifle and probably made by Elias Schaub, a NC maker. It is about a 45 cal rifle and while "the boys" cannot recall the exact length it is a real man's rifle...probably running over 60 to 63 inches overall.

Some of the general questions are obviously value related but other than that one question is how to specifically determine if it has been restocked. Others are what is the best thing to do with it? Hang it on the wall and tell stories? Use the barrel and craft a replica with it? Make it into a better bench rifle? Disassemble it and rebuild it with mostly a new finish on the stock?

Should the conclusion be that it is a restocked gun, the "damage is already done". How much more harm could one do by messin' with it now??

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2016, 10:14:53 PM »

I would be more inclined to believe that this gun was built from a pile of old parts. The lock looks like a modern reproduction, with halos in the modern browning around the internal lock screws. There are more than a few screws that look pretty hardware store, maybe even plated. And the stock has the unrefined shape of a kit gun. I think somebody made a shooter out of either a pile of parts, or an incomplete gun.

Hungry Horse

Molly · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2016, 11:30:08 PM »

No disagreement but a question. Would a pile of old parts come together to fit so well? The boys seem to think if it were not for the finish on the stock it might pass for an original. But if the pile of old parts specifically were all the hardware and a stock was fabricated for for those parts...that makes sense. And no doubt some of the screws are from Ace Hardware. What does the halos signify...(I see them but what does it say about the lock)?

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2016, 11:50:23 PM »

Guys,

One indicator of the age of a gunlock - modern vs. original - is if the screws are a standard UNC/UNF, like an 8-32, or a standard metric, then the lock is most probably new. This would most especially be true with a flintlock.

Jim

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2016, 12:56:25 AM »

The halo around the screws indicates whoever browned the lockplate didn't degrease the threaded holes in the plate before starting the browning process. Something often seen on modern made muzzleloaders, but seldom seen on antiques. That lock looks like the Ashmore Dixie Gun Works sold years ago. All the parts being pretty much devoid of patina makes it hard to judge if they might all have come from the same gun, or not. The missing sideplate is troubling as well, possibly indicating the sideplate bolt hole probably didn't correspond with the bolt holes in the lock.Also there are no crisp lines, or moldings, on this stock, and the lock panels are a bit wider than most antiques.

Hungry Horse

Bob Roller · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2016, 02:07:21 AM »

Quote from: Molly on July 30, 2016, 11:30:08 PM

No disagreement but a question. Would a pile of old parts come together to fit so well? The boys seem to think if it were not for the finish on the stock it might pass for an original. But if the pile of old parts specifically were all the hardware and a stock was fabricated for for those parts...that makes sense. And no doubt some of the screws are from Ace Hardware. What does the halos signify...(I see them but what does it say about the lock)?

I also think it's a Dixie Ketland,probably of Japanese origin like their Dixie squirrel rifle of years past.

Bob Roller

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2016, 02:26:52 AM »

Quote

A very highly regarded NC expert has personally inspected it and pronounced it as a restocked rifle and probably made by Elias Schaub, a NC maker

That's my assessment as well. The t-guard, triggers barrel and buttplate are all off the same NC gun. The rest is new in the past 20 to 30 years. Probably the original stock was restorable at some point but it's long gone now.

Molly · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2016, 02:41:19 AM »

OK, so what do you do with it?

frogwalking · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2016, 02:57:35 AM »

Would it be worth having a good builder make an appropriate stock, using all the old parts and the correct style of modern good quality lock? That is the only thing I could think of that may be worth while. Maybe not?

Molly · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2016, 04:15:13 AM »

The guys are leaning toward taking it all apart. Probably scrap the lock and get a good one. See what the situation is on the trigger...maybe use it maybe replace it. Take off all the other hardware and strip the stock then check the fit of the parts, make an appropriate side plate. The wood is believed to be pretty nice and if the form is correct, why not use it? Maybe put in a patch box OR maybe not. Anyone have a photo of a side plate that would have been found on such a rifle and would there have been a patch box. It looks OK without one so maybe it's best to just leave it off. You would maybe wind up with a nice old "contemporary" and a great old barrel....bench gun anyone?

SO, any other thoughts? And concept of value as it is as it is. They still seem to feel it's a mess as it is and anything done would only make it a better rifle.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2016, 02:08:13 PM »

Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2016, 02:41:19 AM

OK, so what do you do with it?

I'd just shed a tear and keep walking right on by.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2016, 03:39:02 PM »

Quote from: frogwalking on July 31, 2016, 02:57:35 AM

Would it be worth having a good builder make an appropriate stock, using all the old parts and the correct style of modern good quality lock? That is the only thing I could think of that may be worth while. Maybe not?

A Chambers Late Ketland would look good or maybe the lock that's on it could be tuned and working
surfaces polished like the tumbler ramp and mainspring bearing surfaces and then polish both sides of the
tumbler and polish any file marks from the springs. It could be a good project and a learning experience.

Bob Roller

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2016, 07:17:30 PM »

I'd remove the barrel and come up with a really cool use for that, and throw the rest away.

The barrel is the only thing on that even remotely of any value.

Molly · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2016, 07:31:46 PM »

Some good thoughts but more on the "cool use" idea. Maybe a floor light post? Cut in two and make fireplace andirons? Or use it in a replica build?

And if the butt plate and trigger guard are original items along with the thimbles, why not figure out a use for all the brass.

The boys still don't know what to do with it but it is for certain it will NOT involve a purchase but should it be donated well, that's another matter.

Now, this is me talking for the moment but Mr. Roller's thought of making it a project primarily as a learning experience sounds pretty good. I cannot see it being only fit for the land fill. And the wood honestly is pretty nice IMO. I have a hard time thinking it does not have a place in a "reconstructed" rifle. I'll bet there is a builder out there who would be happy to take this and perform his magic and after a few months show us what it has become.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2016, 07:48:37 PM »

Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2016, 07:31:46 PM

Some good thoughts but more on the "cool use" idea. Maybe a floor light post? Cut in two and make fireplace andirons? Or use it in a replica build?

And if the butt plate and trigger guard are original items along with the thimbles, why not figure out a use for all the brass.

The boys still don't know what to do with it but it is for certain it will NOT involve a purchase but should it be donated well, that's another matter.

Now, this is me talking for the moment but Mr. Roller's thought of making it a project primarily as a learning experience sounds pretty good. I cannot see it being only fit for the land fill. And the wood honestly is pretty nice IMO. I have a hard time thinking it does not have a place in a "reconstructed" rifle. I'll bet there is a builder out there who would be happy to take this and perform his magic and after a few months show us what it has become.

What is a replica build?

Why not have Hoyt rebore it or put a liner in it and shoot it?
I'd take a casting of that trigger guard....

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2016, 03:42:21 AM »

I think Bob Roller is correct on the proper lock for this gun. I don't agree with those that would scrap this gun. The current lock is too small for the rest of the gun, and should be replaced, but the rest of the furniture appears to be part of the original gun, and should stay together. From what I can see of the stock there is plenty of wood to refine the lines of this gun. Viewing a bunch of North Carolina guns could give you the information needed to make this a pretty nice gun. Since the antique value is virtually gone, I probably would have the barrel rerifled, or freshened out.

Hungry Horse

54ball · « **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2016, 09:18:39 AM »

Here's a thought.

Send the barrel or precise measurements of to someone like Tim Burton so a modern duplicate can be made. That way it's shootable. If the barrel has it's original rifleling, that's the real historical treasure, about all thats left.

Make castings of the furniture.

After a new barrel and castings are made put the rifle back together as is and display.

Use the new parts for a proper contemporary build based on the original makers work.

IMHO it's futile to try and restore this piece and raises questions about fraud if it were restocked again to look like it's original form. It is what it is.

Molly · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2016, 04:21:23 PM »

Seems like the general sentiment is to do something constructive to it. Personally I favor that myself. "The boys" are going to try to get together with the owner after the CLA meeting and see where it goes. I also agree that there seems to be plenty of wood left to "refine" the lines of the stock even though I don't exactly know what that refined stock should look like at this moment. I don't think the risk of passing it off as an original is any greater if it were re-done than it is now. It was already presented to the public as original and only noted otherwise by people with some knowledge of such rifles having viewed it. I think it is still being displayed and offered and my bet is that most people see it as an original.

Thanks to all who offered opinions. Every one will be considered and offered to the owner along with the names of a few sort of local builders who may take on the project.

But keep the suggestions coming.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #18 on:** August 01, 2016, 05:18:35 PM »

Buy Ivey's book on NC Rifles then you will know what it's supposed to look like.

Cory Joe Stewart · « **Reply #19 on:** August 01, 2016, 05:24:16 PM »

Trying to make rifles that look like originals is the goal for many. Building a rifle to look like an original does not mean that the builder is going to try and pass it off as one. I saw a contemporary rifle in a collection recently that the owner was arguing was an original. He was not trying to commit fraud or lie, he also made it very clear he never intended to sell it. He was just that poorly informed on what he had. Probably the same situation here.

Cory Joe Stewart

Hlbly · « **Reply #20 on:** August 14, 2016, 12:03:04 AM »

I have owned a few Elias Schaub rifles. This rifle is a classic example of his work, except for the obvious replaced lock. Someone commented about no side plate. Never saw one with a side plate or inlays or patch box. It has probably been refinished and was almost surely original percussion. I have never seen a Schaub flintlock. I would not object to owning the gun, but I would put it back to percussion like it should be.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #21 on:** August 14, 2016, 11:39:07 PM »

I have no knowledge of the gunsmith you refer to, but agree this gun was very unlikely to have originally been a flintlock. It's stock shape is so general it looks like a kit gun. I would say it was restocked some time in the seventies, and would benefit from some stock definition, and a general slimming of the stock.

Hungry Horse

Molly · « **Reply #22 on:** August 16, 2016, 01:33:14 AM »

Hlbly:

Sure would be nice to see an example of a Schaub rifle....any photos?

Restock aside it still has some appeal. LOVE the barrel length and weight.

Hlbly · « **Reply #23 on:** August 16, 2016, 02:27:31 AM »

I don't have any photos of one. I would want to see this gun in person to be sure, but I do not believe it is a restock. The whole gun is classic Elias Schaub. It is bulky because it is a heavy match rifle. Look at the size of the barrel, people! Like I said before, I would love to buy it as a restock.

Molly · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2016, 03:13:12 PM »

OK, I'll test the owners interest in selling. He was hot on it some time ago then seemed to lose interest and had not responded to my most recent messages. The boys had a design on it but it also seems to have faded. Do you happen to be heading to the CLA show this week?

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Author Topic: Comments invited on an "original" "restocked" rifle (Read 12683 times)

54ball